Doc Democracy

Way to pad your post count!!! :-).

Hmm. My problem with this is that it needs the linked EGO based entangle, representing the helplessness of someone killing themselves laughing. My problem with that is the hatred my players have for any hint of a mental entangle.... :-)

Thank Christopher. To further refine my example, the SPD 4 character whose first phase kicks in on segment 3 could decide to do all that running in segment 3, segment 4 or segment 5, yes? Then could move the same in segment 6? I have rarely had a game instance where thus might be important, but there is a tactical difference in the way this works. Doc

I have brought this here because I said I would not post in creat pit trap again! :-). But also as it is a discussion (probably) not core to that discussion. My understanding of the rules as written, and I am poring through them just now trying to refine how I came to this understanding, is that your movement in a phase occurs within the segment you take that phase's action. So, if you are SPD 4 with 8m running, your phases are on segments 3,6,9 and 12. On segment 3 you decide to half move and hit an opponent. That all happens in segment 3. If you decide to move 8m instead, then that too all happens in segment 3. The SPD 6 opponent who decides to shoot you on segment 4 does not get to do so before you either punch him or run behind that wall 7m away. Right? Doc

what in my construct requires me to the GM? The only element we disagree on is the extent to which an instant power might tunnel...even then, mine would simply be a bit less effective. I think, if it is instant, it does not need "can go anywhere". I direct it when I can see it and that happens instantly, I then lose the ability to direct it to go anywhere. No contradiction of rules as written. I can justify my use of instant, as necessary to the build, thereby why it should be allowed when normally instant should not be used on a movement power. In your build, the same power could be used on the person within the pit to go further, then further again. The exact thing you said made it broken. For my power, I would need to be hanging over the edge to use it even a second time... Were it not to be instant, as GM, I would argue the fact that it is a combat power (usable as an attack), makes it impossible to be used as non-combat movement. Though, am now tired of arguing minutiae of instant on a UAA movement power, and so This is my last post on the issue. Am sure BDH has gotten what he wanted/needed out of the discussion. :-) Doc

How would you model laughing yourself to death??

Actually, our pricing is not too far away but I see instant as an advantage in this build but do not see the need for recipient can go anywhere (because they can't, they just do one move down). I cost the instant as +1/4 though could be persuaded to +1/2. In this build I don't see no non-combat movement as a limitation either, so probably would not give a discount for that either.

The biggest issue with losing the instant element to the attack is that he can make the pit continue to grow without additional attack rollss. I like the idea that it is an instant attack - it creates an instant pit and no more. Doc

How interesting. It is something I never thought about before but what you said suggests to me that the SPD 2 teleporter decides on segment 6 he wants to make a full move and does so in segment 12. Personally, I would allow the player to chose which segment (6,7,8, 9,10 or 11) he wanted to move on. I would be persuadable on +1/4 or +1/2 for the advantage and would not allow instant on a power designed to be used to enhance damage on an attack. I think it makes real sense in this build to create an instant pit trap.

I think instant can indeed encompass instantaneous. Your own wording matches that of the rules "no more than 1 phase" and it is in the rules as a limitation. As someone pointed out earlier in this case it is an advantage and I would charge it as such, though the rules say that instant should not normally be used on movement powers. I cannot remember where I read about movement happening in this strange fashion but will see if I can find it for you. One point is that of teleport. Do you rule that the SPD 2 teleporter that teleports on segment 6 disappears from view and then reappears on segment 12? :-) You are making me look at the rules too often, it is becoming work rather than conversation! :-). The description of an instant power says: An Instant Power lasts just long enough for the character using the power to make an Attack Roll. Examples include Powers like Blast, Entangle, and Flash. Although an Instant Power lasts for just a second (at most), its effects may linger. A second translates to a segment, no more instantaneous than that for something that is not a zero phase action. I think the limitation allows stretching duration to the full phase to allow for one shot defences to be slightly more useful.

Read the £&@*!?$ Manual. :-)

An 18 is a miss always. I have planned on using a dice pool system for a 3 but never done it yet. The plan is that when you roll a 3 you add the number of dice that you make your roll by. So if you fired a 12d6 blast needing a 10 to hit and roll 3, you roll 19d6, taking the best 12 -allowing you to manipulate BODY and STUN as desired through that choice. Haven't done it, don't know how it will work. Doc

Not sure I would accept those as defences, they are definitely ways to counter the effects but, having eventually actually gone and read the text, the defence would be having access to entangle or barrier powers and I am not sure they will count as reasonably common, though they are reasonably obvious. :-)

The difference is that BDH bought instant on it, same difference but it makes the power a one-shot and not continuous, the tunnelling happens. It is there that the power happens right away. As an aside, HERO movement RAW is odd. There is not segmented movement and this can throw up odd situations. A SPD 3 character with 8m movement, chasing a SPD 4 character with 6m movement who starts 2m away, will catch him on phase 8 despite them both having the same movement per turn. If I remember right, the idea is that all the movement occurs in the first segment of the phase and the character is static for the remaining segments....though that is likely 5th edition teachings...

I did not use the recipient can go anywhere as the power is instant, it works then stops working, no deeper, no need to see them...

Of course, this requires the basic principles that disease is caused by microflora etc rather than evil spirits or homunculi...

Ooh! Reading this I had a crazy idea... What about 1pip killing attack, one hex area effect, only against <disease causing organisms>?? You kill all the bacteria, viruses, nematodes etc in that one hex....that cause disease... I think you can hand wave the detail of commensalistic microflora and microfauna or you can require the healer to first identify the disease, through relevant sense power, then kill the blighters.... Doc Ps: you might need indirect to reflect the fact that the disease is within a host, or perhaps NND? Still does not amount to a great deal of points....

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I do use it in fantasy a lot...however both recent fantasy games I have run have been in Greyhawk and Glorantha. Glorantha has the God Plane etc as a fundamental part of the mythic/magic structure while Greyhawk has a plethora of heavens and hells as well as the astral and ethereal planes to explore...

I do love learning in public as I RTFM.... So usable as attack detailed description indicates that it can only be used as an attack and so the -1/2 I have is not valid and you are indeed costing it to cheaply, +1 3/4 rather than +1 1/2. Doc

Did the work, went and looked at the rule book. :-). So the tunnel makes a lasting impact on the environment. Good hole, it sticks around. As far as I can see, your UAA is too expensive... +1/4 grant power to one recipient +1 can force power on recipient +1/2 grantor controls power -1/4 grantor pays endurance -1/2 power only usable on others +1/4 limited range That comes, in my addition, to +1 1/4. Though if you decide only being able to use it on others is not a huge disadvantage, then it should be +1 3/4. :-) I kinda like the idea of an instant foxhole....

OK, from my reading this moves an opponent, within range, into a pit in the ground. Which I think is the key purpose of the power. Am being lazy, but does UAA grant range as part of the advantage, otherwise you are missing an advantage here, even for limited range. Does tunnelling leave a tunnel by default that others can use? Final question, what is the defence against this attack? Is it all or nothing or can the effects be reduced. I reckon you need to be explicit about that. This also grants some of the versatility of Cantriped's vision, though you will only be digging pits downward. :-). Look out for some breaking into houses via the roof.... :-) Doc

HERO almost actively encourages GMs to get involved in minutiae of detailed power builds, like current editions encourage highly detailed and costly skill sets. I prefer playing with broad skill sets (like Professional Skill: Street Cop) and giving modifiers for things. I reckon a lot of the fiddly detail here can be dealt with simply by putting in "pit trap" and allowing common sense rulings work (it is things like this that keep GMs in a job!). I know it is a pit trap and that while it restricts the movement of someone trapped in it, I can move such that I can use a ranged attack against them and vice versa. I know I can only create it when the ground is not so tough that I cannot affect it. not sure if I would call it kludging any more than movement UAA is (though that is a personal bugbear of min). Again, I would be happy to create that pit in any terrain as long as the player understood that if I considered her to be using the power primarily as a pit creation tool rather than a character trapping tool, I would be re-visiting costs... Doc

I think what Durban is saying here is that the creation of the pit is not the primary objective of the power as described. It was specifically described as creating a pit under someone to trap them. Thus the trap is the primary objective, the pit is an effect associated with that. I am not saying that creating a pit cannot be a primary objective, it can, as you have demonstrated, but that is likely to be more powerful and cost more....and be more cumbersome to use as an attack. It should all come down to gameplay and I would explain all that to the player, allowing him to decide what effects he wanted access to (was willing to pay for). Doc

I can rationalise the blast your way out easier than other stuff. I actually hurt my head more thinking about movement usable against others resulting in people having restricted flight, creating structures or any of the other things related to falling into a pit. Blast your way out? Kick down the retaining wall and run up the resulting slope... :-)