Markdoc

Re: Social System Ah, OK, I missed that: I thought you were referring to a specific rule. It's a good idea: so good, we've been doing it for a couple of decades in all our games, but with the caveat that to pass misinformation along, the opponent has to realise you are pumping them (failed roll on your part or success in a skill vs skill roll) - and then make a roll of their own to pass misinformation without you realising that they are lying to you. It's also explicitly included in the rules - it mentions under Conversation that the person you are talking with may be using his own Conversation on you. Of course you can get misinformation the old-fashioned way - failing a roll and misunderstanding, or even a successful roll if the person doesn't actually know the information you are getting is false. Likewise, Persuasion specifically includes rules on resistance and mentions skill vs skill rolls as one option (Persuasion doesn't actually automatically make you able to resist persuasion: the default resistance is actually an EGO roll. It would be appropriate to go to skill vs skill where two characters were arguing - each trying to persuade the other - though). The rules also specifically make the same point that I've been making - that persusasion is not mind control, and there are instances where it will simply fail. As I've said in past posts, Hero already has a very flexible and (potentially) deeply useful social skill system. We've been doing - using the RAW - most of the stuff that says Hero can't do, for years: I've mentioned the game where the fate of kingdoms teetered on a PS: Poetry roll. I had thought that was obvious, but reading these threads makes it plain to me that not everybody sees it the same way. Part of the problem, I think is that most people don't seem to have read or thought about the intercation skills in Hero, because so much of what has been suggested (apart from hard-coding character reactions) is already in the rules. If smart people who are familiar with the rules can overlook this, that's a problem. One solution might be to split the skills up by class and present them with a basic discussion on how to use skills in that category. It also looks like more discussion on skill contests (including extended contests) would be a good thing - but I've already said repeatedly that I'm in favour of that aspect. Another part of the problem, I suspect is lack of practice with the RAW. Although people often write that they'd like such a system, that may be for rules-completism or on theoretical grounds: they don't actually run social interaction heavy games and wouldn't actually use them if they existed. It's why we keep getting strawman examples like "Courtroom hero" instead of examples from actual games. I do run social interaction-heavy games ... it's why I'm so opposed to a hardcoded social interaction system. cheers, Mark

Re: Any house rules on a different dice system?

Re: Social System This, I think, is just a matter of taste - I prefer the system as is, rather than blending disadvantages and making traits stand in for skills. But of course, I realise others may prefer a different approach. OK, I didn't see the misinformation bit (I didn't read the .pdf: I assumed it contained what you posted in a neatened up format). cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects

Re: Social effects Not really. The heroism lies in the choice. If the choice (whether to believe or not) hangs on a die roll, that's not heroic. In this case, an analogy with physical combat is feasible. Rolling to hit the bad guy is not heroic. It's the decision to shoot at him that is heroic. Again, I'd simply have to disagree. The player gets to make the choice. The player gets to live with the consequences. If Lilly really has gone over to the dark side, not shooting her may be the wrong choice. But either way, it's the player's choice. I can think of few things that would stink as badly as having to live with the consequences of a bad "decision" that you didn't actually make, but which were dictated by the dice. So let the player make the choice. If he or she chooses wrong, let them live with the consequences. Don't insist that the GM make it for them. Neither of the outcomes you describe above, in any way require "rolling for belief". We come back again to the core point: if the GM has done his job, the player (and thus the PC) believes there is at least a good chance Lilly s going to stick the unicorn. Cue! Dramatic tension! Let him play it from there taking his former experiences and psych lim.s into account. In this case, the persuasion might tip his hand. If the GM hasn't done his job, then "forcing" belief with a die roll is a clumsy, ugly attempt, which adds only irritation and further suspension of disbelief - now the player knows she isn't actually going to to do it. Because of course, the truth is, in the film, the hero did not believe Lily would kill the unicorn. In fact he would not - no matter what his sidekick said. That is, after all, the entire point. I'm honestly not seeing what the upside to circumscribing the player's choice is here. Either it's: The PC must act as though Lilly were now evil. Options like trusting her are now off the table (in other words, the GM is starting to dictate the player's actions) or: The PC believes that Lilly is evil - but may act as he chooses anyway (in which case the whole belief thing is moot and the persuasion attempt served no purpose). cheers, Mark

Re: Social System This is a good example - and without the fixed modifiers, this is exactly how I run things right now, using the rules as-is. You even include the option I mentioned before, that some things simply aren't possible on a simple skill roll. It does seem rather a lot of trouble to go to, just to recreate the system we currently have. This approach is applicable to any set of skill rolls though, not just social skills: you can go for the straight-up "make the roll" approach, or you can try to break a difficult task down into subtasks (I call them "extended contests" in a nod to Hero Quest) and work at such subtasks in a way to try and get more favourable odds (which is essentially what you did above). An important correlate of course is that the GM can do this to the players as well. A group who might resent being told to perform a certain task by a NPC who pops up to deliver the ultimatum, may well take the same task willingly from an NPC they know and trust, or if the task is sold as an activity they actually want to do. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects And to me, it's a wet soufflé of disappointment and flaccid boredom. If the player knows or strongly suspects that Lilly is true but has to make a roll-off to allow his PC to act on his beliefs, it reduces the whole deal to petty chance. Am I heroic? (rolls dice) Nope, I guess not. The drama must come from the GM'ing. If the players really don't wonder if Lilly is about to do the cutting then the entire episode is without flavour. From the player having to make a choice - a choice with momentous consequences - it becomes "Fred, I'm getting a drink - can you roll to see If I believe? Hey, who drank all the Mountain Dew?" Frankly, if a GM tried to pull a stunt like that on me, I'd go find a better game. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects

Re: Social effects There is one major difference. The first option means the player can't say "I don't believe Jimmy would shoot me: I stand tough". In the second situation, the player gets to make that call. He may be wrong, but hey - it's his choice. He may choose to stand there anyway - but he's doing so "knowing" that Jimmy's going to shoot him - which in game should give the thing a completely different context.

Re: Renaissance Everyman Skills

Re: Social effects Wait - I thought you were in favour of a hardcoded social system. Now you're saying you don't need it? I agree, of course. Running the game as you suggested would be good GM'ing - and probably great fun for the players as well. Telling a PC "Go ahead and shoot her - you've been persuaded" would drain the fun out it in an instant. cheers, Mark

Re: And off we go! Several armigers come forward and collect the party’s weapons and check them for concealed weapons. Gen manages to conceal his sling and Aquila conceals a knife, but everyone else is disarmed. They are then marched under heavy guard along the trail. Signs of ruins in the undergrowth become more frequent and it is clear that hey are entering the heart of the old city. Lamoniak strikes up a conversation with one of the armigers, who is happy enough to talk – he explains that the party has now become forced labor, for which he is very happy: he has had enough of clearing the forest by hand. The group soon arrives at a cleared area. Amid the tree stumps, are the remains of walls and columns – in some places the outlines of whole buildings remain. Dominating the clearing is a short, squat pyramid, with steps up to the top on two sides, surrounded by a double arcade of columns. These are made of a white stone, with deeply carved characters winding around them. The PCs recognize them at once – this is where their “magic stone” came from. When they are bought into the clearing, a group of men come forward to meet them and the recognize the cultists they have been chasing for so long. The head cultist – the man with the black, bushy beard – repeats what the armiger has told Lamoniak: that despite the fact that the party have been chasing him for months now, he bears them no ill will. He claims that they are dupes, having been fooled by the church militant. He and his companions are simple scholars and if the party works to help them clear the area, he will simply let hem go when their work is finished. He also warms them that the columns around the pyramid are set to protect it from magical forces: they will attack anyone using magic, so don’t try any spellcasting! The party doesn’t believe him when he says they will be freed. Lamoniak in particular is certain he lies. However, there is not much else they can do – constantly watched by archers, they are set to work clearing an area off to one side of the clearing uprooting tree stumps and moving rocks. They are told to be especially careful to remove any of the white runestone. On hearing that, Khelsen manages to bury a big chunk close to the centre of the cleared space rather than moving it. It’s not clear what the goal is, although they hear one of the cultists refer to it as “a landing place”. The party also manages to work out from several comments that the cultists are expecting the imminent arrival of someone important. Lamoniak has a more immediate problem, however. He has a charm that keeps his clothes clean and neat – unfortunately scattered though the area are chunks of the white runestone, and when he gets his clothes dirty, the magic on his clothes activates these. Several times he is injured by stone – fortunately only small ones – that shoot out spikes. He tries to convince the cultists that he can control the spikes by surreptitiously smearing dirt on his clothes – almost spiking a guard in the process. Eventually they decide he is too difficult to have around and force him to go and sit on the steps of the pyramid. He demands - and gets – a blanket to sit on so that he does not dirty his clothes. At night, the prisoners are herded into a small group, hobbled with rope, given food and water and closely watched. They see the cultists go to the area they have been clearing and enact some sort of ritual. The find the buried chunk of white stone and there is some consternation, but eventually it is removed. They enact another ritual and soon a beam of light shoots up into the air, just as they saw last night, bathing the clearing in a light like the brightest moon. Although it is well away from the colonnade, the PCs hear the stone rustle and see the runes moving on the surface of the stone. The players complete the clearing the next day, though they work as slow as they dare, and that night the cultists again erect the silvery beam. Later that night however, they are awakened by cries “Up there. It’s here! He’s arrived!” People are looking upwards, and the players see a winking light in the sky. One of the cultists lights a lamp and signals back and slowly the players see a ship arrive. It’s an old fashioned dragonship, and its sail bulges as though filled with an invisible wind. It spirals lower, coming in to land in the cleared space. Khelsen takes advantage of the fact that everyone is watching the ship to grab a chunk of runestone and then he dashes forward, hurling it as the ship. The stone arcs into the silvery light beam and instantly becomes a mass of spikes and tendrils stabbing out. Khelsen can’t quite reach the ship, however and it falls to the ground. The next second, so does Khelsen, with several arrows in him. The PCs drag his body back and Gen manages to bandage his wounds. He’s badly injured, but Gen doesn’t dare use healing magic in case there are rune stone fragments in the soil around them. A portly man in ornate robes descends from the ship once it has landed and greets the other cultists. There is much bowing. After that, torches are lit and the silvery light is extinguished. The new arrival comes over and examines the PCs asking if these are the people who attacked his fellow cultists in the market square at Houndsgard. When that’s confirmed, he simply shakes his head and says “Remarkable. Quite remarkable.” After that, things quieten down and eventually everyone goes back to sleep. The next morning, while the prisoners are being fed and people are moving about, Aquila uses his knife to saw mostly through everyone’s hobbles, so that they can be broken easily. The cultists are standing around discussing. Apparently they are “interested in the principle of how this works” but apparently they did not expect the white runestone. It’s complicated things by preventing magic being used to clear the forest and it prevents them using magic up close. Eventually, they come to some conclusion and order the guards to herd the prisoners up onto the temple steps. The party has no choice but to obey, though Adriana whispers that they can beak their hobbles, run up the steps and down the other side of the pyramid, where they will be protected from arrow fire. But the players only get part way up the steps when the new arrival orders the archers to “Kill the one with the magic clothes”. There is a hail of arrows and even though the PCs dodge, Lamoniak is hit twice, but does not fall. As the blood stains his clothes, white spine shoot out from the columns, and he only avoids impalement by a hairbreadth. Gen and two pirates are also wounded. The rest of the party break their hobbles and run. Two more pirates fall and half the group are wounded, before they reach the top, which reveals a broad circle of stone, apparently unmarked by moss or creeper. The party don’t dare cross this, so run around its margin, but oddly, the arrow fire seems to have ceased. Glancing back, they see that the cultists and their soldiers are retreating towards the colonnade and that a half dozen are sprawled in the clearing. At the edge of the trees are a row of archers. It’s Khatz, Thana and the pirates! Under cover of the confusion, the ex-prisoners sprint away from the pyramid and reach the forest’s edge. At that point most of the group runs to the left, towards the area where they slept. Their weapons are there, but now no-one is guarding them. Aquila turns right and stealthily creeps around the clearing towards the flying ship. The ex-prisoners come close to the sack containing their weapons and Lamoniak bursts from cover running to it. He reaches the sack and starts to drag it away but is hit by an arrow and collapses only halfway back to the trees. Endre races out and retrieves the weapons. Everyone quickly arms themselves and they prepare to charge the soldiers who have taken shelter among the colonnades as they appear to be running short of arrows. Endre takes aim at one of the cultists who is peering around a column and drops him with one well placed arrow. At that point everybody charges towards the remaining soldiers. The chief cultist has had enough. He makes an arcane sign and suddenly he is englobed by a shimmering field. The columns around him go crazy, shooting out spikes and tendrils which shatter against the force wall – half the soldiers guarding him are killed by the explosions of stone in the first few seconds. As he forces his way forward the columns writhe and shake as the shoot spike after spike at him, and the colonnade becomes so active that in places it collapses. But none of the stone can penetrate and the arrows shot at him simply shatter against his spell. He begins to run clumsily towards the flying ship and his fellow cultists run out of the colonnade to escape the spiky stones and the collapsing columns. They are met by the charging pirates from both Adriana and Thana’s bands and a fierce battle ensues. The PCs run towards the flying ship (Khelsen scoops Lamoniak up on the way and tosses him over one shoulder), but it is clear the cultist priest is going to get there first. However, Aquila by this time has reached the flying ship and is lying hidden by the gangplank. As the priest rushes up his magical protection spell passes over Aquila so that when Aquila stands up to confront him, he is inside it. Aquila catches the priest totally by surprise and stabs him three times – in the face (stunning him), chest and shoulder – before he has a chance to do anything. The cultist collapses and Aquila tears from around his neck a prominent piece of jewellery – a gold necklace with a large black hemisphere covered in strange gold runes. The cultists, atacke d on two sides and abandoned by their leader, flee towards the forest. The pirates are cheering and waving their weapons. And then about this point, people notice that something like a vortex has formed over the top of the pyramid and down the step runs a vivid red thread like a ribbon of blood. The red river touches some of the fallen coprses and suddenly eyes open in its length and a fanged mouth at its end. From the top of the pyramid, a red and purple shuddering mass of fanged and eye’d tentacles erupts and begins to flow down the pyramid. Most of the mass heads for the hole in the colonnade made by the chief cultist’s escape but it goes in other directions too – screams are heard from the cultists who fled around behind the pyramid. Other tentacles snake after the PCs who have to run past the thing to reach the ship. Aquila runs up the gangplank and as soon as he sets foot on the deck, the ship begins to lift off. It hangs for a second, held by two ropes, then they pull the stakes free of the ground and the ship begins to slowly rise into the sky. Gen and Belllona reach the dangling ropes and start to climb, while Aquila finds a rope ladder and casts it over the side. Khatz races to the rope ladder starts to climb it and then part way up looks at the receding ground and freezes. Dalarna reaches the ship but hesitates. It’s clear that Khelsen is not going to make it. Dalarna shouts at Khelsen to throw Lamoniak into the air and he catches his body in a whirlwind and lifts it onto the ship. Then he does the same for Khelsen, lifting him just clear of the grasping tentacles. At that point, alas, the ship has risen too high for Dalarna – but as the red tentacles slither towards him, an anchor hits the ground beside him, thrown by Bellona. He grabs the anchor and is lifted free of the ground. The tentacles reach up after him and the ship, but fall just short. One by one the others are hauled up onto the ship as it slowly climbs up over the pyramid, revealing a scene of pirates and cultists fleeing willy-nilly into the forest, pursued by scarlet tentacles. A never-ending stream of red monstrosity empties out of the pyramid. Everyone congratulates Aquila on getting the ship airborne, but then he explains he did nothing – it started as soon as he bought the necklace on board and he can't control it. The ship – now as high as the volcano’s peak –is still climbing, bearing them away to an unknown destination!

Re: Roll-high rules for Skills and Attacks and such? We use roll high for combat. It's very easy to explain (Add your OCV to your dice roll - you need to get 10 over your targets DCV to hit) - especially since this is way D20 works (OCV is your to hit bonus, DCV is AC Bonus: and AC starts at 10), and if new players have any gaming experience it's likely to include D20. We experimented, way back in the dark ages, with roll high for skills and for consistency's sake also wanted 10 over for success in skill rolls. The way this worked was that you calculated a base skill level (CHA/5) and added skill levels. So a Charcter with DEX18 would have a base of +3 for DEX-related skills and if he bought three levels with acrobatics, he'd have +6 with Acrobatics. Skill rolls were simply given a difficulty scale. IIRC (it's been years since we did this) Trivial exercise -0 Normal skill use -3 Difficult skill use -6 Very difficult -9 Insanely difficult -12 Legendary feat -15 or higher The GM of course could asign a number anywhere along that scale, not just in -3 steps and always, if the skill use was really routine, no roll is needed. FAMs work the same as now - you can make a roll but get no CHA-based bonus. So (for example) climbing is an everyman skill, so Joe Normal, who has no skill levels could climb a small tree (trivial exercise) by rolling 10+ (he gets no bonus from DEX/5 since it's a FAM). That's equivalent to 11- in the current system. Since all the probablities are the same, you can see that this system made basic tasks very easy compared to the current model, since we increased the chance of success from 8- to 11- for basic tasks. However, we also extended the penalty scale upwards, so to have any chance of success at really difficult tasks you needed a good skill roll. That meant that having 10 points sunk into a skill really meant something - a highly skilled character will amost always succeed at trivial or normal tasks. It also makes probability calculation easy for players - if a PC has +6 in a skill, he knows he can succeed at difficult tasks more than half the time, for example. It was also easy to teach noobs: the basic rule was "You need to get 10 over your target to succeed in any task". We also used the steps up as a way of gauging "how successful" a roll was: for every 3 you made the skill roll by, you gained an extra degree of "success". cheers, Mark

Re: Alive through Force of Will One off the wall possibility that I have used in my game was the automaton power. I allowed a Berserker PC to buy it for his berserk rage. Before starting it he had to define a specific condition "kill the big boss" to end his rage (alternatively, he'd run out of steam after 5 minutes), and once he had started it, he became an automaton - incapable of making making rational decisions. However, he'd take no STUN, use no END, was immune to social influence or mental attacks - and not try to avoid attacks, so his defences were cut by 2/3rds. He also had a large pool of extra BOD "Only to calculate point of death". When Berserk, the character was extremely hard to stop, and he would mindlessly pursue whatever his goal was, unless literally hacked limb from limb. He was a threat to friend and foe. He also ended most fights keeling over with massive wounds and would certainly have expired early in his career if the team healer hadn't been around. Less extreme, I had a PC with the talent "True Grit" - 50% physical damage reduction, Stun Only, requires an EGO roll, plus 5 PD armor, requires an EGO roll. That PC simply made an Ego roll when attacked and if successful he took a wound - blood flew, etc - but he reduced the damage by 5 and halved any remaining STUN. He was also remarkably hard to stop - and at 20 points, while an expensive talent, it was well worthwhile. He could take dozens of "wounds" in a fight and stagger out the other side, beaten and battered, often in negative body, but still on his feet. cheers, Mark

Re: Renaissance Everyman Skills All of these things are possible skills for a Renaissance nobleman. None of them are what I would consider everyman - or even "everynoble" skills. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects Right. And I am absolutely good with that. I see persuasion - or any other social skill - is a means to influence - but not control a character's actions. I interpret the rolls (and degree of success) as a guide to how much and how accurate the information I feed a player should be, and also how much pressure I should apply to the player/NPC. What I think would be helpful is a guide for players and GMs on how to adjudicate these kinds of interactions - including interaction with PRE rolls, perhaps some comments on situational bonuses, etc. I don't want things like a table of concrete bonuses (for example) because that leads inevitably to things like "Try Torch to the groin: that gives the best modifier" - which are not applicable to all social situations (a seduction roll, for example ) cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects Ah, but this is where we disagree, and why I found HeroQuest to ultimately be unplayable. Not all game conflicts are contests, IMO, and not can - or should - be resolvable in the same way. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects Yes! Exactly! I do not regard social interaction and physical combat as analogous activities. Social interaction is, ultimately, a question of negotiation and should be handled that way. Physical combat is not and shouldn't be - all IMO, of course cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects

Re: Social effects

Re: Social effects No. I'd just suggest he stay away from games with a lot of combat. Likewise, I would suggest a GM with an inability to make social conflict sing stay away from games with a lot of social conflict. In neither case, would extra rules attempting to address that deficit have been a good idea. I have in fact, played in such a set up. It was unspeakably dull, because the players and GM had different perspectives and agreed to negotiate the outcomes. Never again. It's one of those things which could, in theory work (maybe even work well) but in practice rarely does. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects No. The NPC in this case had very firm, very clear orders and a good idea of the consequences if he disobeyed. Short of directly threatening his life, he was not going to give way. In that situation, good social skills don't translate into mind control, but they give the player feedback, on how things are going. In short Søren (Lamoniak's player) was left in no doubt that "This guy is really squirming, he's really miserable, but he's refusing anyway". A character with poorer social skills might have been fed a simple "He refuses. No, you don't know why. Maybe he's just a total douche". An analogy might be skills like tactics or deduction. When a player makes a deduction roll, I don't say "OK, here's the plot". I give him hints and help, I point out things the PC could know or should know and the player might have forgotten. Social skills the same. Good (and appropriate) social skills should give player more options - and IMO - more information, so those options are better directed. The players know this, so they have learned to trust the outcomes. Depends how it's done. Conversation and Persuasion are for the most part, "soft" social skills, IMO. Interrogation and PRE attacks are for the most part "hard" social skills. Using a PRE attack (depending on context) will usually - but not always - be seen as bullying: but in some contexts, it can be seen as inspiring, instead. Interrogation for example, could be used in a soft fashion, if the PC in question was playing "good cop". Persuasion could be seen as bullying, if the PC kept pushing the same points over and over. Just like in real life, what constitutes bullying is highly context dependant. And yes, such bullying could be open to an NPC as well. That *is* pretty much how I approached it - although in social conflict, there is almost always another option. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects The others have already answered this more eloquently than I can, but yes. A GM who cannot build up and sustain suspense is going to run a crap game where suspense is supposed to play an important part. Telling the players "Your PCs are tense and nervous" just doesn't cut it. Likewise, if the player wants to run a game of social intrigue and witty barbed repartee, he or she needs to be able to carry at least some of that. Rolling dice and saying "She makes a witty retort and you are dejected: roll under your angst or acquire a neurosis" is going to lose its novelty after the first 20 minutes or so. It cuts both ways: I've played with GMs who are terrible at running combat: they get easily flustered, the PCs trash their NPCs with ease, they lose track of who's where ... those GM's should not try to run combat heavy games, IMO. I kept playing in one such game, because the GM in question was really good at background: the game was entertaining because of interplay between the players, the PCs and NPCs. In short, the payoff was the plot and the buildup to combat, not the actual fights themselves - which made up 10% or less of actual gaming time and tended to be short and brutal (particularly for the NPCs). Personally, I would have welcomed a bit more threat, and challenge, but providing that GM with rules to allow him to control PC actions in combat, so that we didn't slaughter his NPCs, would not have been helpful to anyone. cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects Actually, I have had a similar situation in my current game, with Lamoniak - a noble. I used social skill rolls (and PRE attacks) to feed information to the player - for example "You realise now that he is cowed, but he is not going to back down. Now he's really uncomfortable - maybe it'd be a good idea to find some way for him to save face". The PC then has a variety of options - he can try bullying the man into submission (possibly making a long-term enemy). He can leave in high dudgeon (possibly still making an enemy and at any rate, abandoning what he was trying to do). He can try to take it up the chain of command - using social skills on a different approach than "Let me retain my weapon". He can try to maneuver things to a face saving solution. Which of those things he does, and what options he has depends on his PRE, his social skill set and the player's intentions. The worst outcome, from my point of view, would be making a dice roll (or even 6 dice rolls) and telling the player "Lamoniak decides to back down and hands over his weapon". cheers, Mark

Re: Social effects Because the first two examples are the GM doing his job - adjudicating the "external" interaction between the PC/player and the rest of the world. The last example is the GM also doing the player's job - adjudicating the PC's "internal" landscape. If the GM is not only describing the world to the player, but also telling him what his reaction is to it, what's the player there for? To roll dice? The GM can use a dice-rolling program for that, while everyone else goes out for pizza. cheers, Mark