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Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested I think we are pretty much all agreed that this aspect is key to setting up magic systems in FH. cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Yeah, the Ars Magica connection occurred to me too. cheers, Mark

Re: Herophile Fantasy art

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Flight. Invisibility. Teleport. Tunnelling. Desolidification. Darkness. etc, etc. There are so, so many ways a mage can outmaneuver a muggle: many of them are not even very expensive to buy. The fighter may boast of his mighty 10 DCV, but it does him Jack **** when his invisible opponent is attacking his ODCV of 3, or using AoE accurate to attack a DCV of 3, using summon to call forth creatures with a statline far superior to his opponents' ... or even simply boosting his own statline to one superior to any ordinary mortal. Or, or, or ... The argument that the game is balanced "because mages have to buy their powers which means that they will have bad statlines" does not, alas, survive contact with reality. I am curious, now, though: how many fantasy campaigns have you actually run? cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Right: we're arguing the same point, I think. There's no "one true way" to build a magic system - what's important is to build to the desired feel. So I emphasised strongly in the earlier posts the importance of the GM designing spells. But that's not going to be enough, just by itself to create a low fantasy feel, unless the spell list is very restrictive. As an example, a while ago, we had a player complaining on the forum that the GM had limited spells to no more than 30 active points (the same as a greatsword) and that his mage couldn't generate big killing spells, and if he was no more effective than a fighter, what was the point and wah, wah, wah. He was missing the point. A mage doesn't need to match straight damage with straight damage to dominate combat (and thus all of the game, since by definition mages can shine outside combat, given the powers they have access to) His mage could still buy and use a greatsword, just like the fighter. However, even within a 30 point active limit, he can also cast Freezing Blood so that when he goes up against an opponent, he can Drain their DEX by 15. Shouldn't be too hard to finish them off as they bumble around ... Or he can use a Freezing blood spell(2d6 Entangle, transparent to physical damage): 1 headshot later, the mage can stalk off in search of more victims. Even at low active points, magic, if freely usable, can be hugely advantageous. Now this is not to say that Hero is bad for low fantasy: I think it's actually the best system I have tried for that purpose. It's just that fantasy - especially low fantasy - that makes setting design a bit more challenging than many other settings. If you are running Supers, the game system is decently balanced, straight out out of the box, because every character potentially has access to a full suite of powers and skills, and the setting is by default suitable for flying characters who can ignore most mundane weapons If you are running a gritty spies and detectives game, the game is very balanced, because everyone has access to skills and to GM-provided equipment Fantasy is a bit different because in many settings you have the fighters/mages archetypes - one of those character conceptions has access to almost no powers and the other has - in theory - access to them all. So that last line has been my focus: how do you make the game fun for people who want to play either of those archetypes? If one archetype is too weak in relationship to the other, many players will feel cheated if they want to play that archetype. My answer, boiled down to its essentials is handicap the use of powers to the point where they remain useful but can't readily dominate every situation. cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Except ... and this is not hypothetical, because I have seen it over and over ... that's not what happens. Oh sure, a cheap fireball to clear away the minions is nice, but a Barrier (excuse me, Shield spell) big enough to defeat longbow arrows and a simple Aoe Accurate TK (or as we mages like to call it, Bigby's Crushing hand) costs the same - and lets you lift the hapless fighter into the air and strangle him at your leisure. There ain't a damn thing he can do about it unless he's got STR 20+. The argument that a 12 DC fireball's no worse than a 6 DC bow not only ignores the beneficent effect of Area of Effect (Fighter: "I just killed another Orc!" Wizard (yawning) "Yeah, good for you. I just killed 20. Let me know if you want some help over there because I'm all outa orcs on this side.") but more importantly ignores the fact that a fighter type is really restricted to a few powers - armour, HKA and HA. And they are limited by physics and the "real weapon" limitation: a fighter normally can't buy a 12 DC bow. Spellcasters are not so limited: invisibility, flight, entangle transform ... and they can exceed the limits of mundane weaponry with ease. Unless the wizards are kept under strict control, the game pretty much inevitably degenerates into The Amazing Rhialto and his muggle sidekicks. If you force them to pay full cost for spells, they buy a smattering of cheap cantrips, and then 2-3 combat spells (big-ass defence, big-ass attack and backup nasty attack, usually) and then spam them. It does nothing solve the problem, but it does add an element of boredom. How many threads have we had on the Fantasy forum, with GM's lamenting that very fact? It might not happen every time - if for example, your players are well-mannered genre fiends who don't care about maximising their character's potential at the expense of the game, or are maybe simply too ineffectual to build dangerous characters. But it happens a lot. cheers, Mark

Re: Herophile Fantasy art

Re: Herophile Fantasy art

Re: Herophile Fantasy art [ATTACH=CONFIG]44325[/ATTACH] Since the thread came back to life, here's a picture from last weekend's game: my PC and an NPC taking on two "demonic dire apes". Seriously! cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested I agree that a 2 point level is only for one maneuver, but in my games you could use a 2 pt maneuver for block ... as long as it was only for Block. Same for disarm or any other single maneuver. cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested OK, found the link to my old comments. Re-reading them, the tone is embarrassingly jejune: please ignore that. I think the basic advice is sound though. It's certainly stood me in good stead. http://reocities.com/TimesSquare/castle/9529/Gaming_stuff/Grimoire/designing_magical_worlds.htm cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

Re: How do you Hero GMs prepare for new campaigns? This. I've played in several games where the GM prepared a field guide to the world. I'm probably the only player that read them, and to be honest, even I didn't retain much of it, because I wasn't that interested. And I'm the guy who draws pictures of all the characters in our game: the guy who knows where his PC comes from and makes up a backstory. In our current game, I'm probably the only person who could identify the area my PC was born and grew up in, on a map of the world! I'm certainly the only player with a list of NPCs from my home region I know And if I'm not really interested ... well. Players do want to jump in and play. If they were really into prep., they'd be GM's. Think of it like a TV show. How many people would have watched - say - Babylon5 if the first episode had been some guy just sitting in front of the camera, talking about factions and trade and philosophy for a whole episode? There wouldn't have been an episode 3, because nobody would tune in to see episode 2. Deep background is good, in my opinion. It gives life to a setting, it draws players in, it gives a game longevity, it gives the GM something to work with/from. I always do plenty of background, and I make some of it available to players to read if they want. So far, I don't think anyone has actually read much, if any of it. Exposition, on the other hand, is bad. It should not be necessary for the players to know everything that the PCs know. The GM can feed them information as they need it. If it's fed to players in context, they'll remember it. Give them an info dump and they will forget it almost instantly. The only parts they will remember will be mangled and then taken out of context, many months hence. It's perfectly OK to say "I think it's fair to say that your PC would know ..." when they stumble across something that they really should know. Otherwise, I give my players description and guidelines during character creation, and that's basically it: if they can't hit the ground running without a mass of exposition, then I feel like I've done my job poorly. It's sad that so much background material and care languishes unloved by players in the background ... but that's how it is. I see the biggest benefit of it as actually being for the GM: working it out helps the GM plan the game and set it right. On the other hand, if you post it on the web, other GM's will also read and appreciate it cheers, Mark

Re: How do you Hero GMs prepare for new campaigns? [ATTACH=CONFIG]44318[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]44319[/ATTACH] Cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Heh. I'll go against the flow. Getting your players to develop histories and personas, develop the character in-depth .... with the players you have described, that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Either they'll fight every step of the way, or they'll generate "histories" that explain why their character is focused on fighting and bad-assery to the exclusion of all the things they don't want to buy. That sounds like a lose-lose situation. My advice: pick up what you have and run run with it. If you can throw situations at your players where they perceive having skills other than combat is useful for them, they will buy those skills of their own free will. I've converted many D&D players to Hero, and have gone through this "combat skills only" phase many times. As NuSoardGraphite noted, PC's tend to round out over the course of the game ... if there's a reason for it. Right now, it sounds like they don't believe that they have a reason for it. It's OK if they like fighting: I like a good fight scene myself. But even hardcore combat monsters like it if the fights mean something. If you can embed your fight scenes in an interesting narrative, they'll start to develop an interest in moving that narrative forward ... and that means they'll spend points to help them do that. What you have looks like a pretty good start in that regard. It's not reasonable to expect players to spend points on skills or background fluff that for all they know, they'll never use or need, especially when they are new to the system. Give them time to grow into it. cheers, Mark

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver? The answer to this is that the technique is taught - and used - in real life militaries because if executed correctly it's effective. Not as effective as simply shooting the victim in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, but more effective than trying to subdue him with your bare hands. Like many techniques taught to special forces, it's based on the principle "use anything available to augment your capabilities". It's not something that's likely to come into play very often - as you note, you have to sneak up on your victim, surprise them and then execute the attack successfully. On the other hand, it's not entirely a media construct - according to the official reports SBS forces attacking Faylakah in Iraq garrotted sentries prior to placing beacons for airstrikes. Given its use - if rarely - in real life and its more frequent portrayal in the media, its inclusion in a heroic game setting seem appropriate enough. cheers, Mark

Re: Zeppelins Yeah, helium has been a limited commodity for decades now: the Hindenburg was only filled with Hydrogen (against the wishes of its designer) because the US government would not sell helium to the Nazi-controlled syndicate that owned it. So supply has been a problem for a long, long time: the US helium reserve was set up specifically to address this problem, and now that the "market efficiency" fiends have done away with the helium reserve, we're going to be back to scarcity. This issue has been foreseen since the legislation shutting down the helium reserve made it into law: it's why there's a resurgence in interest in using hydrogen, despite the fire risks. DARPA's ISIS project for example, gets lifting power from hydrogen, and it's the last of the US military's airship projects still standing as far as I know. And other groups are looking at how to make hydrogen-based airships safer. Hydrogen's cheap and easy to make, and gives about 10% extra lift (important for high altitude projects) so it has some clear advantages, despite one big limitation. cheers, Mark

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver?

Re: Tricky Garrote Maneuver? I simply define a garrote like this: +10 STR for a rope/cloth garrote or +5 STR plus 1 pip HKA for a wire one (Limitation: only works on grab vs targeted limb or neck, -1) plus Change environment, -3 to PER rolls: sound group (Limitation: Linked to grab (-1/2), only works to cancel victim's voice, -2) Since I assume superheroes don't spend a great deal of time garroting each other, it's reasonable to assume that this will mostly see use in heroic level games and that hit locations will be in use. The penalty for targeting location 5 (the throat) is -10, and the penalty for grab is -2 for a total of -12! That make sit unlikely to be used in combat. On the other hand, against unsuspecting targets - which is pretty much the only time a garrote would be used, the penalty is only -7 ... and your target will be DCV0. It's not a sure thing, but hitting DCV7, should not be impossible. If you do hit, you'll be doing double damage, and the victim will have a hard time escaping. On the other hand, if he has a gorget or other neck armour, that will give him significant protection. Simple, and straightforward. cheers, Mark

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested Whereas I regard it as exactly in the sweet spot - just the right place to give a decent range of options, and good survivability without so many options to make it difficult for newbies. Most of my fantasy campaigns have started at 125 points. It just goes to show that different GMs have different approaches to the game. Hero system gives you the tools to build the game as you envisage it. As for your first comment, I agree 100%. If the GM's introduction was "You're all gladiators" I'd expect to get a bunch of badass fighter types: so in this case he's getting what he asked for. Giving them 125 points, that guideline and aiming for "a little tougher than an orc" is unrealistic, given than an orc weighs in at 43 points. If he wanted characters a little tougher than an orc, he should start them off at 50-60 points ... but I wouldn't expect a lot of background skills at that level! Looking at the characters, however, they actually seem like pretty decent builds: all of them have some skills and perks, none of them seem especially outrageous, and none of them seem terribly tough. One on one, they'd beat the crap out of an orc or an unfortunate guardsman, but then, they're gladiators: professional fighters and killers. I'd expect them to. But at 2 on 1 or three on one? They might prevail ... but then again, they might not. I'm guessing the GM hasn't a great deal of experience running FH, because even a lesser dragon would eat these guys for breakfast (as it should: they're starting characters). The dragon is near invulnerable to their weapons, it's faster than any of them, has a better OCV and a bite which is likely to inflict significant harm through any armour they are likely to possess. They'll have no difficulty hitting it, but they will be hard pressed to do it any significant damage - meantime, it can fly, hit them pretty much at will, and does pretty nasty damage when it does. One grab-and squeeze or Tail bash will do more than enough to stun any of these guys. I'm doubting any fight would go much longer than 24 seconds (say two turns) - even without the fire breath, or mind control powers! Remember, a couple of points of difference in CV and SPD can make an enormous difference as can DEX: landing the first blow is of great importance at this level. Personally, I think these characters would be fine: I'd be happy to include any of them in a game I ran. cheers, Mark

Re: How do you Hero GMs prepare for new campaigns? Ayup. Originally I liked the idea of living everything backwards, but given that at some points he'll be interacting with the PCs that would have simply too brain-mashing to make work. cheers, Mark

Re: How do you Hero GMs prepare for new campaigns?