Toxxus Posted March 5, 2019 Report Share Posted March 5, 2019 15 hours ago, JohnBear said: 1 word... Hit Locations OK that's 2. This is a really big deal in Heroic campaigns. Combat Luck even at the 1st level can prevent 6 BOD damage if it involves a hit to areas 3-5 or 13. It's a massive difference and it is further compounded if bleeding, impairing and disabling wound options are used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 5, 2019 Report Share Posted March 5, 2019 If you're using Hit Locations, it's kind of weird. You multiply the STUNx for the Hit Location before defenses are applied, but you multiply the BODYx for the Hit Location after. So 3 DEF would still subtract 3 BODY from a head or 13 shot; you'd just multiply whatever made it through by the BODYx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted March 5, 2019 Report Share Posted March 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said: If you're using Hit Locations, it's kind of weird. You multiply the STUNx for the Hit Location before defenses are applied, but you multiply the BODYx for the Hit Location after. So 3 DEF would still subtract 3 BODY from a head or 13 shot; you'd just multiply whatever made it through by the BODYx. Explain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 5, 2019 Report Share Posted March 5, 2019 Example: assume you rolled a 4 BODY hit to the head. The head has a STUNx of 5, so that blow does 4 BODY and 20 STUN. If the target had 3 rPD and 8 nPD (for 11 total) from whatever sources, (4 - 3) 1 BODY would get through. The head's BODYx would double that to 2 BODY. The total of 11 PD would mean (20 - 11) 9 STUN gets through. Anyway, my point was, Combat Luck or any other rDEF only stops however much kBODY it stops. You double after rDEF, not before. Edited to add: Vulnerability multiplies before defenses in all cases. Which could lead to weirdness if you're using both Vulnerability and Hit Locations; assuming the target in the above had both 2x STUN and 2x BODY Vulnerability to whatever, the 4 BODY would double to 8; defenses would subtract 3, leaving 5; the 2x BODYx for the head would double that to 10. The total STUNx would be 10, so that 4 BODY killing blow would cause 40 STUN before defenses. Actually I'm wrong. If you're using both, then both Vulnerability and Hit Locations apply before defenses. (6e1 p. 432) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDU Neil Posted March 5, 2019 Report Share Posted March 5, 2019 36 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said: Example: assume you rolled a 4 BODY hit to the head. The head has a STUNx of 5, so that blow does 4 BODY and 20 STUN. If the target had 3 rPD and 8 nPD (for 11 total) from whatever sources, (4 - 3) 1 BODY would get through. The head's BODYx would double that to 2 BODY. The total of 11 PD would mean (20 - 11) 9 STUN gets through. Anyway, my point was, Combat Luck or any other rDEF only stops however much kBODY it stops. You double after rDEF, not before. Right... the mantra is always "Stun multiple BEFORE... Body multiple AFTER"... for Killing Attacks because you have to know what the baseline Stun being done, is. But with Normal Attacks, you simply use the multiplier for both AFTER defenses... since Stun and Body are both determined by the damage roll. That is where it gets hinky. (4d6 punch to the face... 14 stun 4 body vs. 4 PD + 3rPD CL... 7 stun gets through, no body... x2 so 14 stun is taken. 2d6K bullet to the face, 7 body done, first multiply 7x5 for 35 stun... then 7 body vs. 3rPDCL, 4 left over x2 = 8 Body taken... 35 stun vs. 4+3 = 28 stun taken. Really, the confusion is just compounded by Normal Attack vs. Killing Attack vs. Hit Location multiplier... I've done it so long it is quick, but it can be daunting if you aren't familiar with it.) Chris Goodwin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted March 6, 2019 Report Share Posted March 6, 2019 On 3/6/2019 at 6:27 AM, RDU Neil said: Right... the mantra is always "Stun multiple BEFORE... Body multiple AFTER"... for Killing Attacks because you have to know what the baseline Stun being done, is. But with Normal Attacks, you simply use the multiplier for both AFTER defenses... since Stun and Body are both determined by the damage roll. That is where it gets hinky. (4d6 punch to the face... 14 stun 4 body vs. 4 PD + 3rPD CL... 7 stun gets through, no body... x2 so 14 stun is taken. 2d6K bullet to the face, 7 body done, first multiply 7x5 for 35 stun... then 7 body vs. 3rPDCL, 4 left over x2 = 8 Body taken... 35 stun vs. 4+3 = 28 stun taken. Really, the confusion is just compounded by Normal Attack vs. Killing Attack vs. Hit Location multiplier... I've done it so long it is quick, but it can be daunting if you aren't familiar with it.) Well. There ya go. I've just been doing all the maths before defenses. (I probably still will. soz.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted March 7, 2019 Report Share Posted March 7, 2019 On 3/5/2019 at 4:20 PM, Hugh Neilson said: Isn't that exactly what it simulates? The author does not want this character hurt too badly, so no one ever lands a solid hit, despite the lack of any reason that he never gets seriously injured other than pure, blind luck. That is the cinematic ability we are trying to simulate in-game. Personally I see Combat Luck the same way I see Bulletproof Spandex and "Invisible, Persistent Forcefields". They allows designs like: and without Sacrificing combat survivability. Every other Discussion really just seems you guys overthinking it I mean why even care what it was originally "intended" to simualte? Even if you can figure out the intention unambigiously (wich is a big if), how it is used in practice seems way more important. Hugh Neilson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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