Shooting With Intent to Miss

[MechaniCat]

I'm interested in some different perspectives on how to build a certain power or powers.

 

From a special effect standpoint the maneuver involves shooting an opponent (who is assumed to be able to dodge bullets) with intent to miss. the idea being you are cordoning off an area (similar to suppression fire), trying to get your opponent to dodge left as opposed to right or otherwise bait you opponent into a certain behavior, by shooting at them in a calculated way. Very anime Gun Fu type stuff.

 

The intention of this power is to reduce an opponent(s) DCV from duress or position control. Campaign rules are that guns can't have an OCV above a certain value, and therefore Gunslingers must reduce a target's DCV to be effective. This is the in game mechanic for the assumption that strong warriors can dodge bullets. People can get faster so they can buy however much OCV they want, but bullets are always the same speed regardless of the shooter, so the OCV has a hard cap.

 

My first thought is to use a straightforward Drain with an area of effect, maybe a Suppression Field (which gets around the fact you can't hit your opponent normally), but would like to hear some other interpretations. I thought about Mind Control or Images, but they didn't seem to fit. Change Environment might be a possibility?

 

Using just the 6e source books btw.

[Doc Democracy]

Well, you have the right approach, you know the ultimate aim is to reduce DCV, that is, as you say, most likely a drain in mechanical terms.

 

You might consider, instead, a bonus to PRE attack.  You need PRE+20 to cause an opponent not to act for a full phase and be reduced to 1/2 DCV.  If you read that instead as causing an opponent to dive a particular way, setting up a follow-up attack, then this fits the bill.  You could make it all or nothing, the opponent either does it or does not, no minor effects.

 

It is apropos as opponents with greater PRE are less affected while those with power defence have no greater ability to avoid the effects (which they would have with a drain).

 

For most base characters, that means a roll of 30 on a PRE attack - needs 9D6 to achieve that on average.  If the character has PRE 15 and can count on the gun (violent action, +1d6) countering context (in combat, -1d6), then you need +6d6 to give you nine dice.  

 

The rules allow for +1d6 for an appropriate interaction skill (+2d6 If roll is made by more than half).  I might as GM allow 5d6, requiring you to make some kind of attack roll to get the extra dice with a chance of a bonus for a good attack roll.  

 

This is feels like a better mechanic than the drain, IMHO anyway.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

I’m not sure I entirely follow the logic: pistol bullets travel at 400m/s, a punch maybe 10m/s and a sword tip maybe 40m/s: if you can dodge bullets, you can dodge pretty much anything short of a laser.  That aside, them’s the rules, so…

 

There are various ways to simulate what I think you are after.

 

First off, can you tell me what the hard cap on OCV is and what a typical DCV would be?  Also does the hard cap include combat manoeuvres and combat modifiers?

 

The simplest way to get +1 OCV is to Set.  Full phase action, you get the OCV bonus.  That might help.  You can also Brace but that only helps against range modifiers.

 

Otherwise you have to make the opponent easier to hit.  Lots of ways you can do that, but the simplest is one hex AOE.  You are attacking DCV 3 – SFX that you shoot lots of bullets.

 

In fact pretty much any power you build is going to need AoE to hit, unless your GM allows you to use your uncapped OCV for attacks that are not damage shots.  You could use Entangle, Drain, Flash, whatever you like, really.

 

One option would be to build Darkness (which is already AOE) with personal immunity, the SFX being that you have ‘blinded’ the target with your GunFu by distracting them so much that their DCV drops to half.  They are not actually blind, they just can’t see your other attacks.

 

The only other way I can think of is mental powers – with the sfx that what you are doing is more akin to psychological warfare than actual telepathy and such.  You could use either mind control or mental illusions to get a target to reduce their DCV.

 

 

[Sean Waters]

43 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Well, you have the right approach, you know the ultimate aim is to reduce DCV, that is, as you say, most likely a drain in mechanical terms.

 

You might consider, instead, a bonus to PRE attack.  ...

 

Noice.

[Christopher]

4 hours ago, MechaniCat said:

From a special effect standpoint the maneuver involves shooting an opponent (who is assumed to be able to dodge bullets) with intent to miss. the idea being you are cordoning off an area (similar to suppression fire), trying to get your opponent to dodge left as opposed to right or otherwise bait you opponent into a certain behavior, by shooting at them in a calculated way. Very anime Gun Fu type stuff. 

 

The intention of this power is to reduce an opponent(s) DCV from duress or position control. Campaign rules are that guns can't have an OCV above a certain value, and therefore Gunslingers must reduce a target's DCV to be effective. This is the in game mechanic for the assumption that strong warriors can dodge bullets. People can get faster so they can buy however much OCV they want, but bullets are always the same speed regardless of the shooter, so the OCV has a hard cap. 

In a general Rule, Hero does not "do" duels very well. The system is optimized for Group combat, as most RPG's are.

 

Coordinated Attacks (6E2 44)

The target of a coordinated attack is subject to the "multiple attackers" penalty. Most people only consider it for the "check for being STUNNED" part. But it does have this effect too.

 

Spreading an attack (6E2 49) allows you to trade off DC for OCV or Area of Effect.

 

Another option is to force the target to "abort to dive for cover". And then use the built-in DCV penalties to allow followup attacks to hit better.

[eepjr24]

You could also go with something like a single hex Change Environment that gives -3 to -5 Dex ("Dance boy, DANCE!") which would force a Dex roll to not fall down. This would get you 1/2 DCV for prone if they fail.  Not exactly what you asked for but another option for reducing DCV.

 

- E

[Toxxus]

On 2/4/2019 at 9:01 AM, eepjr24 said:

You could also go with something like a single hex Change Environment that gives -3 to -5 Dex ("Dance boy, DANCE!") which would force a Dex roll to not fall down.

 

Despite the pretty lengthy write-up of Change Environment I was never very clear on exactly what you could do with those stat roll penalties other than knocking someone down.  Are there other options?

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

From your description of the game, I have to question if a gunslinging protagonist fits with the GM's vision of the game.  I would recommend talking with your GM and seeing if he wants a gunslinger in his game.  He may be imagining guns as exclusive to mooks, which is common for super martial arts . 

If he thinks your gunslinger is a good match for the game as he imagines it, then talk with him about how you can contribute meaningfully in combat despite the OCV cap. 

If he doesn't want guns to be viable, then you're just going to wind up butting heads and causing problems. 

[eepjr24]

4 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Despite the pretty lengthy write-up of Change Environment I was never very clear on exactly what you could do with those stat roll penalties other than knocking someone down.  Are there other options?

Sure. In the Fantasy setting, confusion and fear type spells are common, those affect INT and PRE rolls, respectively. Anything that requires those rolls (INT: magic, deduction, many knowledge skills, PRE: resisting presence attacks) is affected. I have seen it used by mentalists to knock down resistance to suggestions and there are certainly applications with CON for poisons, mental attacks based on CON, etc. Dex and Perception are probably the two most common things I see affected by CE, second would be those designed specifically to trigger a PC or NPC vulnerability or other complication. 

 

- E

[Lucius]

15 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Despite the pretty lengthy write-up of Change Environment I was never very clear on exactly what you could do with those stat roll penalties other than knocking someone down.  Are there other options?

 

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[Toxxus]

12 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

Sure. In the Fantasy setting, confusion and fear type spells are common, those affect INT and PRE rolls, respectively. Anything that requires those rolls (INT: magic, deduction, many knowledge skills, PRE: resisting presence attacks) is affected. I have seen it used by mentalists to knock down resistance to suggestions and there are certainly applications with CON for poisons, mental attacks based on CON, etc. Dex and Perception are probably the two most common things I see affected by CE, second would be those designed specifically to trigger a PC or NPC vulnerability or other complication. 

 

- E

 

Right.  I understand the idea of penalties to rolls that Change Environment generates.  What is less clearly defined is what type of additional effects you can inflict.  Such as DEX roll or fall down or STR roll or get pushed back.

 

There doesn't seem to be a defined list.  Would obfuscating fog be just a -4 PER roll or would it be -4 PER roll or you're unable to see until your next phase?

[Tech]

I would simply have the player who wants to shoot with the intent to miss make an attack roll. If you "hit", then the defensive person must move or get hit. PRE attk or Drain isn't accurate - some villains could care less if they get hit or not and will not move as hopefully intended (see original poster train of thought below).

 

" From a special effect standpoint the maneuver involves shooting an opponent (who is assumed to be able to dodge bullets) with intent to miss. the idea being you are cordoning off an area (similar to suppression fire), trying to get your opponent to dodge left as opposed to right or otherwise bait you opponent into a certain behavior, by shooting at them in a calculated way. "

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I would simply have the player who wants to shoot with the intent to miss make an attack roll. If you "hit", then the defensive person must move or get hit. PRE attk or Drain isn't accurate - some villains could care less if they get hit or not and will not move as hopefully intended (see original poster train of thought below).

I might be missing something obvious, but how does "roll to hit, if you do they might move" solve MechaniCat's "my OCV with guns is capped too low to hit" problem? 

[Tech]

50 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I might be missing something obvious, but how does "roll to hit, if you do they might move" solve MechaniCat's "my OCV with guns is capped too low to hit" problem? 

 

(trying to answer for the 3rd time - technical problems)

 

Buy 1 hex Effect?

[RDU Neil]

On 1/26/2019 at 2:00 AM, MechaniCat said:

I'm interested in some different perspectives on how to build a certain power or powers.

 

From a special effect standpoint the maneuver involves shooting an opponent (who is assumed to be able to dodge bullets) with intent to miss. the idea being you are cordoning off an area (similar to suppression fire), trying to get your opponent to dodge left as opposed to right or otherwise bait you opponent into a certain behavior, by shooting at them in a calculated way. Very anime Gun Fu type stuff.

 

The intention of this power is to reduce an opponent(s) DCV from duress or position control. Campaign rules are that guns can't have an OCV above a certain value, and therefore Gunslingers must reduce a target's DCV to be effective. This is the in game mechanic for the assumption that strong warriors can dodge bullets. People can get faster so they can buy however much OCV they want, but bullets are always the same speed regardless of the shooter, so the OCV has a hard cap.

 

My first thought is to use a straightforward Drain with an area of effect, maybe a Suppression Field (which gets around the fact you can't hit your opponent normally), but would like to hear some other interpretations. I thought about Mind Control or Images, but they didn't seem to fit. Change Environment might be a possibility?

 

Using just the 6e source books btw.

Essentially... all details aside... this is a feint. Faking an attack in one direction, to set up the real attack from another direction.

 

So... HERO basically has "feint" built in as part of active defense and assumed as part of your OCV. Saying, "I do a quick thrust kick with my right leg, getting him to slide left and directly into the path of my follow up left cross to the chin!"  sounds really cool, but essentially that is all color, it comes down to +2 OCV with HtH or whatever the character has on the sheet.

 

This is where HERO is inconsistent. Some "maneuvers" are abstract color that fold into the OCV vs. DCV baseline... other maneuvers are declared and have mechanical effects on that OCV vs DCV baseline, and even other effects (target falls) that don't exist otherwise. 

 

You could introduce a "Feint" maneuver, and I've played around with this. It just adds more rolls and complexity. Basically your throw two attacks... the feint and the real one. Decide if you want your levels to apply to the feint or the real one. Results of the feint can give bonuses or penalties to the actual attack. It was fun to do this when I was playing small games with one or two players and it was heavily martial arts based, and every kick and punch was described in detail (as above) for really memorable fights, but it did add complexity that was colorful, but probably not necessary, and certainly would bog things down in large groups... not to mention, as I stated above... any trained combatant is basically throwing feints or using misdirection in every attack, especially in HtH. At range it tends to be more of anticipation of where you think they are going to move based on the flow of combat and where attacks are landing, but again... essentially can be folded into OCV vs. DCV.

 

There are certainly times when it becomes more "dramatically interesting" as a feint becomes a serious turning point in a combat... but in such cases, I'd probably go with Doc's PRE attack type of deal. (But because PRE attacks are so powerful, I house rule them to actually take time in the game. My players are good about not abusing PRE attacks, but by the RAW they are VERY easily abused.

[eepjr24]

10 hours ago, Toxxus said:

 

Right.  I understand the idea of penalties to rolls that Change Environment generates.  What is less clearly defined is what type of additional effects you can inflict.  Such as DEX roll or fall down or STR roll or get pushed back.

 

There doesn't seem to be a defined list.  Would obfuscating fog be just a -4 PER roll or would it be -4 PER roll or you're unable to see until your next phase?

There is not a comprehensive list that I know of. APG 1 has some interesting effects, but only related to ability rolls for EGO, otherwise they are not related to ability rolls specifically.

 

I'll post something in the Rules forum, Steve might be interested in adding this type of examples to his ongoing list of things to write about if there ever is an APG 3.

 

- E

Edited February 13, 2019 by eepjr24
Added thoughts on APG2.

[Beast]

Are you going for the herding type gunfire Allen Quartermain did to Mr Hyde in LXG?
presence or mind contol vs OCV would work IMHO

[Lucius]

Ranged Feint:  (Total: 24 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Telekinesis (15 STR), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resist with INT not STR; +0) (24 Active Points); Limited Power Cannot damage, move target etc. - only to impose "Grab" penalties on target (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Jammed; -3/4), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects Limited Group of Objects (opponents at range; -1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Conditional Power Can be negated by Tactics, Analyze, or Danger Sense roll (-1/4), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of Limitations; As per weapon used (charges, etc); -1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

The warrior expends a half phase attack action and makes a Skill roll (when this ability is bought select an appropriate Skill such as Tactics or Power Skill: Gunplay) to make a feint that will confuse and mislead an opponent. Mechanically this resolves like a 15 STR Telekinetic Grab against the target's INT rather than STR. The target is at half OCV and half DCV until the warrior's next phase ends. The target also gets to roll Tactics, Danger Sense, or an appropriate Analyze, to negate this ability.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary asks, how does that grab you?

[Doc Democracy]

Ooh, I never thought of using TK versus intelligence before - the idea being that you are pushing someone toward something that they might be able to reason themselves out of (if they are bright enough)...

 

Would you allow levels with INT to provide additional resistance to the TK??

 

Doc

[Chris Goodwin]

Suppression Fire is a combat maneuver.  6e2 p. 89.  I'd say that describes what you're asking for pretty well.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

5 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Suppression Fire is a combat maneuver.  6e2 p. 89.  I'd say that describes what you're asking for pretty well.

Again I have to ask how does this help?  MechaniCat is already at an OCV disadvantage due to houserules, how is another -2 on top of a -1 AF penalty going to help him matter in combat? 

[Lucius]

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Ooh, I never thought of using TK versus intelligence before - the idea being that you are pushing someone toward something that they might be able to reason themselves out of (if they are bright enough)...

 

Would you allow levels with INT to provide additional resistance to the TK??

 

Doc

 

Sure.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I'll allow a palindromedary in a tagline

[Chris Goodwin]

23 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Again I have to ask how does this help?  MechaniCat is already at an OCV disadvantage due to houserules, how is another -2 on top of a -1 AF penalty going to help him matter in combat? 

 

sigh  Everything's a Power...

 

If all he wants is to hit high DCV targets, and we're doing "everything is a Power", he has a couple of options.  

 

Naked Advantage: Area of Effect, Accurate, plus No Range Modifier, applied to RKA.  That very nearly eliminates the target's DCV.  If I were the GM I'd see that as sort of violating the spirit of the OCV limit, and a session with the Character Approver 9000 as seen in my signature might be in the future.  

 

But if what you really want is to reduce the target's DCV, there are a number of ways to do that.  

• Drain DCV
• Suppress DCV (variant of Drain)
• Change Environment:  target must make an EGO roll or be at some DCV penalty.  This is probably what @MechaniCat is asking about.  

Let's assume you want the target to make an EGO roll at -3 or be at -5 to their DCV.  The EGO roll portion is "impose a Characteristic Roll penalty" and is 3 points per -1 according to 6e1 p. 176, for 9 points for the -3 to EGO Roll.  -5 to the target's DCV might be covered in one of the APG's, but if it's not, "Additional -1 to the Range Modifier (or, in the GM’s judgment, some other negative Combat Modifier)" is 3 points per.  Potentially this might be doubled because DCV is a "Defensive Power" for purposes of Adjustment Powers (6e1 p. 135, 6e1 p. 141); if I were the GM I'd probably consider Change Environment used in this manner to be equivalent to an Adjustment Power and would therefore double the cost.  6 points per -1 to the target's DCV, for -5 DCV, would be 30 points.  39 base points for the Change Environment; apply the Area Effect Advantage as desired.

 

Edit to add:  You could remove the -5 to DCV portion, and (on the "slippery spot" theory, see rules question link below) make your Change Environment require the target to make an EGO roll at -3 or go prone, which puts them at 1/2 DCV.

 

The following, asked in Rules Questions a couple of years ago, might also prove helpful:

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

3 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

sigh  Everything's a Power...

Get off the high horse, you gave bad advice and got called on it.  Your dislike of Powers has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that your proposed solution would not help MechaniCat. 

[Chris Goodwin]

26 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

Get off the high horse, you gave bad advice and got called on it.  Your dislike of Powers has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that your proposed solution would not help MechaniCat. 

 

Oh, and the answer, that came to me as I was driving home:  you're attacking the area, not the target (and are therefore attacking DCV 3) and if the target moves into the suppressed area, he's automatically hit.