Getting Better: Tonight's Mistakes

[Manic Typist]

So I had another one of those nights where I knew I should know the rules but in the moment I was uncertain (I also had one of those "stop watching me do basic math" when determining how much damage was done after defenses, love it).

 

So I thought I'd share what things I drew a blank on, and then go review the rules and share the results, in the hopes that it'll save others time/encourage others to share their own lessons from things they forgot/generate interesting discussion.

 

1) Passing Strike - the player works straight out of HeroDesigner, and I forgot to print his sheet for my reference, so he ended up asking me "So is it +30 STR or 30 STR total for this move?" and since I couldn't see his screen... I made a call but honestly couldn't be sure. I don't really love this habit of his but if I'd had a hard copy I could have answered it. That was really my biggest pain point all night and it was entirely self-inflicted.

 

2) Using Desolid/Flight combo power in conjunction with Disarm/Passing Disarm - Same PC, has a Desolid movement power like Reaper in Overwatch. In the case of Disarm, you can definitely do a half move/then Disarm. With Passing Disarm... the PC wanted to activate the Power, then fly across the room, rematerialize and use Disarm (need to make sure the PC actually has Passing Disarm... point is, since they don't have the "Affects Solid" (forget the proper name off the top of my head) Advantage, they would need to deactivate the Power to perform the Passing Disarm. I ruled it was allowable but am going to research the combination of Activating/Deactivating a power and then performing a maneuver at the end.

 

3) Need to review the Sweep/Multiple Attack w/Manuevers rules. I know it's you take the worst of all modifers and apply it to all, with a -2 to all attacks after the first... but want to double check.

 

4) Another player thought AVAD couldn't do BODY as a default, like NND requires the "Does Body" Adv. I honestly couldn't recall.

 

5) Can you draw a weapon as a part of movement? I think I thought this but it's because I was recently reviewing the rules for Pathfinder.

 

6) Shapeshift - I've never used it as a PC, so I need to re-read it again. Mostly I'm want to be ready for when the PC, who has multiple identities via Shapeshift, gets knocked unconscious. Do they revert to their true form? Is there a heal back associated with it like Transform?

 

Now to pull out my books and see what I can look up.

[Brian Stanfield]

Who hasn't been there before?! Good luck finding answers. I'll look for your replies on a couple of them.

[Christopher]

I will try to solve your questions. Of course I have the benefit of unlimtied time instead of the streess of GMing in paralell.

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

1) Passing Strike - the player works straight out of HeroDesigner, and I forgot to print his sheet for my reference, so he ended up asking me "So is it +30 STR or 30 STR total for this move?" and since I couldn't see his screen... I made a call but honestly couldn't be sure. I don't really love this habit of his but if I'd had a hard copy I could have answered it. That was really my biggest pain point all night and it was entirely self-inflicted.

The setting will solve this.

In Heroic, a 6DC attack sounds like a likely value. WHile +6 DC sounds excessive.

In Superheroic, a 6DC attacks sounds uselessly small. Unless it has some advantages that affect the DC calculation (so iti s actually a 9 or 12 DC attack), 30 STR is way to little damage. While normal STR + 6 DC should be about in line Characters < 30 STR.

 

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

2) Using Desolid/Flight combo power in conjunction with Disarm/Passing Disarm - Same PC, has a Desolid movement power like Reaper in Overwatch. In the case of Disarm, you can definitely do a half move/then Disarm. With Passing Disarm... the PC wanted to activate the Power, then fly across the room, rematerialize and use Disarm (need to make sure the PC actually has Passing Disarm... point is, since they don't have the "Affects Solid" (forget the proper name off the top of my head) Advantage, they would need to deactivate the Power to perform the Passing Disarm. I ruled it was allowable but am going to research the combination of Activating/Deactivating a power and then performing a maneuver at the end.

Turning a power off/on usually requires a 0-Phase action. And you can not do that specific "flip switching" action twice per phase. So no turning Desolid "off and on again" in the same phase. You also no longer can take 0-phase actions after an attack. Otherwise Affects real world would be unessesary.

If he was desolid when starting the move: Turn off desolid before the move or after a half-move. Then Passign strike.

If he wasa solid before: He could turn it on before/after his half move, but would then jsut pass through his enemy. And turning it on after an attack does not work.

 

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

3) Need to review the Sweep/Multiple Attack w/Manuevers rules. I know it's you take the worst of all modifers and apply it to all, with a -2 to all attacks after the first... but want to double check.

I usually find Multiple Attack to be overly limiting. Way to many penalties in Superheroics to use it.

 

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

4) Another player thought AVAD couldn't do BODY as a default, like NND requires the "Does Body" Adv. I honestly couldn't recall.

NND is a form of AVAD.

In a way NND is both the final step and a lessening of the "Defenses Ladder".

The rules regarding no body damage are AVAD side:
"AVAD attacks only do STUN damage (even ifin their ordinary form they do BODY), and the specifed defense reduces their effect as usual. However, characters can purchase the Does BODY (+1) Advantage for them (see 6E1 333). If a character buys an AVAD attack with the Advantage Autofre, he must apply an additional +1 Advantage to Autofre."

This includes the exceptions for Drains.

 

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

5) Can you draw a weapon as a part of movement? I think I thought this but it's because I was recently reviewing the rules for Pathfinder.

By RAW "Draw weapon" is a 1/2 Phase action, with no "can be combiend with 1/2 Move" allowance.

Of coruse Quick Draw is still an option.

 

16 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

6) Shapeshift - I've never used it as a PC, so I need to re-read it again. Mostly I'm want to be ready for when the PC, who has multiple identities via Shapeshift, gets knocked unconscious. Do they revert to their true form? Is there a heal back associated with it like Transform?

By default Shape Shift is "constant" and "costs end each turn".

"A character may freely shif his shape as ofen
as desired; switching shapes takes a Half Phase
Action. Shape Shif costs END to use, both to shif
shapes and to stay in a shifed shape. If the character is Knocked Out or Stunned while in shifed
shape, his Shape Shif immediately “turns off ”
unless it’s Persistent"

 

 

[Manic Typist]

Christopher already addressed these, but as promised, here are the results of my research:

 

1) Passing Disarm is +30 STR.... I for some reasoned typed Passing Strike up above. He kept disarming and going intangible, which is fine if you've paid for it but he hadn't paid for it to be THAT effective. In the future he can Disarm and THEN on his next Phase run away Desolid, but he's still at risk for getting hit in the interim.

2) Can't Activate/Deactive non-movement powers in a single segment; also it's an attack action so you couldn't activate the power after performing the attack.

3) Reviewed; I forgot to halve DCV. I think Multy Attack is very useful in a Heroic context but in a Champions game you're probably better off just buying an AoE attack with a SFX of attacking a bunch.

4) NND is AVAD; requires and Advantage for Does BODY

5) This ain't Pathfinder, 1/2 Phase to Draw and 1/2 Phase to move, period.

6) Shapeshift is Persistent and I need to make sure the Zero END Advantage is added given how the player wants to use it.

[Doc Democracy]

I liked the original post simply because it demonstrates good GM practice, make the call in the game with the proviso that you will look it up for future games - not setting a precedent.

 

It is a good thing not to put yourself across as omniscient, but that you are not going to interrupt the game for detailed rules research, and get on with a temporary ruling.  It keeps the game flowing and you are not stuck with decisions you made in one session impacting the the subsequent sessions.  If the players do not trust you to make this kind of call during the game then there is something wrong in the dynamic.  (I have had games where I have forbidden players from looking at the rulebook, unless specifically asked by me, while the game is in play)

 

Doc

[BoloOfEarth]

13 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

6) Shapeshift is Persistent and I need to make sure the Zero END Advantage is added given how the player wants to use it.

 

I doubt it's applicable here, but just wanted to point out that if he runs the Shape Shift off an Endurance Reserve, it doesn't need to be Zero END to remain up if he gets knocked unconscious - it will remain active until he runs out of END in the Reserve.

[dsatow]

15 hours ago, Manic Typist said:

Christopher already addressed these, but as promised, here are the results of my research:

...

5) This ain't Pathfinder, 1/2 Phase to Draw and 1/2 Phase to move, period.

...

 

 

Unless they have the Fast Draw skill.

[Manic Typist]

2 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

 

Unless they have the Fast Draw skill.

I didn't bother to caveat it since that would have made it "Zero Phase to Fast Draw (if roll succeeds), 1/2 Phase to Draw (if the Fast Draw roll fails)" but yes.

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

 

Unless they have the Fast Draw skill.

No, even with Fast Draw you can not "Draw a weapon as part of a Movement action".

 

You can (hopefully) turn the Draw Weapon eaction from a Half-move to a 0-phase action.

Only hopefully because if you fail the roll, it is a normal 1/2 move.

[dsatow]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

No, even with Fast Draw you can not "Draw a weapon as part of a Movement action".

 

You can (hopefully) turn the Draw Weapon eaction from a Half-move to a 0-phase action.

Only hopefully because if you fail the roll, it is a normal 1/2 move.

 

That is true, the only way to make it a part of a move action is to make it an action which takes no time.  But in general, for the attacker's purposes, a 0 phase action is just as good as part of movement.  The only situation would be if the target had a delay for the weapon being drawn, a power which is triggered as an action which takes no time, or similar cause.

[Surrealone]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:25 PM, Manic Typist said:

3) Reviewed; I forgot to halve DCV. I think Multy Attack is very useful in a Heroic context but in a Champions game you're probably better off just buying an AoE attack with a SFX of attacking a bunch. 

 

This and the comment, above, (about Multiple Attack having 'too many penalties') both seem to have been made with the idea of the Multiple Attacks being made in a vaccum (i.e. wherein the character lacks skills that properly complement the use of Multiple Attack).  For example:

• The Defensive Attack skill allows the use of Multiple Attack to incur only a -2 DCV penalty (instead of half DCV).
• The Rapid Attack skill allows the use of Multiple Attack as a Half Phase action (instead of a Full Phase) … permitting one to half-move and then Multiple Attack.

• Two-Weapon Fighting is another good skill to use with Multiple Attack, since it effectively renders the first two attacks at no penalty (instead of the usual negative applied to all attacks beyond the first based on the total number after the first).

In addition, while RAW does not permit the purchase of PSL's to offset Multiple Attack penalties, what IS game-legal is to buy +2 DCV, Only When Multiple Attacking [-1] (10 Active, 5 Real)  …. as well as the same or more for OCV … in order to represent someone who is highly skilled at rendering multiple attacks.

So, before poo-poo'ing on Multiple Attack, consider that when someone actually builds around the concept of being effective at Multiple Attack (instead of being someone who lacks skill at delivering multiple attacks) … it can be both effective and highly cinematic.  (This is especially true if the character can also place shots reasonably well.)  Give it a try and you'll see.  It truly operates somewhere between single-attacking and auto-firing … filling a needed niche.  However, like Autofire in the 5e and later world, you actually have to build with some skills around Multiple Attacking if you want to be good at it.

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Surrealone said:

 

This and the comment, above, (about Multiple Attack having 'too many penalties') both seem to have been made with the idea of the Multiple Attacks being made in a vaccum (i.e. wherein the character lacks skills that properly complement the use of Multiple Attack).  For example:

• The Defensive Attack skill allows the use of Multiple Attack to incur only a -2 DCV penalty (instead of half DCV).
• The Rapid Attack skill allows the use of Multiple Attack as a Half Phase action (instead of a Full Phase) … permitting one to half-move and then Multiple Attack.

• Two-Weapon Fighting is another good skill to use with Multiple Attack, since it effectively renders the first two attacks at no penalty (instead of the usual negative applied to all attacks beyond the first based on the total number after the first).

In addition, while RAW does not permit the purchase of PSL's to offset Multiple Attack penalties, what IS game-legal is to buy +2 DCV, Only When Multiple Attacking [-1] (10 Active, 5 Real)  …. as well as the same or more for OCV … in order to represent someone who is highly skilled at rendering multiple attacks.

So, before poo-poo'ing on Multiple Attack, consider that when someone actually builds around the concept of being effective at Multiple Attack (instead of being someone who lacks skill at delivering multiple attacks) … it can be both effective and highly cinematic.  (This is especially true if the character can also place shots reasonably well.)  Give it a try and you'll see.  It truly operates somewhere between single-attacking and auto-firing … filling a needed niche.  However, like Autofire in the 5e and later world, you actually have to build with some skills around Multiple Attacking if you want to be good at it.

When it seems like a Multiple Attack Cinematically, waht I usually see is:

Due to their lower seperate power, Groups of mooks share one sheet with one set of Attacks, STUN, Con, etc.

The charter jsut did a attack agaisnt that single sheet worth of enemy.

Anything else is just special effect.

[Surrealone]

9 hours ago, Christopher said:

When it seems like a Multiple Attack Cinematically, waht I usually see is:

Due to their lower seperate power, Groups of mooks share one sheet with one set of Attacks, STUN, Con, etc.

The charter jsut did a attack agaisnt that single sheet worth of enemy.

Anything else is just special effect.

That's not at all what I see with Multiple Attack.  Cinematically, it could be Elektra attacking twice in a phase with a pair of Okinawan sai, or it could be a cop double-tapping his opponent with a pair of .40 caliber rounds per his self-defense training … or even a right hook and left cross combo from Wolverine.

i.e. Two (or more, if desired) skilled attacks of some kind … where neither Autofire nor AoE make sense for the desired effect.  That's the niche filled by Multiple Attack and the skills surrounding it.

[Christopher]

20 hours ago, Surrealone said:

That's not at all what I see with Multiple Attack.

I am talking about it not being a multiple attack.

 

When you see a Character defeating tons of mooks in a short time, you have the option to either see that as a multiple attack - or as groups of mooks being one sheet. At wich point it is a normal attack.

[Manic Typist]

Finally played again tonight.

 

I think it went really well. One PC basically went toe-to-toe with 8 enemies and held them off/took them down one by one (his OCV gets crazy high for a 281 pt PC - he usually sits at something like OCV 9/DCV 11 when fighting, so plugging the gap against a bunch of unarmored opponents with OCV 5 works well for him).

 

The only rule things I can remember now that I want to look up:

1) Movement penalties for taking damage to the legs. I said a CON roll to move at with -2M, or fail the roll and your movement is halved (as always, I made it clear that it was a me making a ruling in the moment situation)

2) Cover/angle penalties. One of the PCs made a game of teleporting around tossing enemies off a catwalk... but one of them he tossed happened to have a still loaded rifle. 

 

After the battle, the PCs didn't bother to check on the people they'd tossed earlier. Some of them had fled but one remained, lurking in the shadows, and lined up a shot while the PCs interrogated the people they'd captured. Mr. Sniper lined up for a head shot... and rolled a crit. Fortunately the PC had 18 BODY so after modifiers he was "only" at zero body but man did it scare them. I was worried about the reaction but took it in good stead and I think it underlined that this is dangerous for everyone, even if you are capable of amazing feats.

 

But... perhaps there should have been some additional penalties based on the angle of shooting upward against someone on a catwalk, even if you had time to line up a shot. I'll review the rules for cover, etc.

[Christopher]

17 minutes ago, Manic Typist said:

1) Movement penalties for taking damage to the legs. I said a CON roll to move at with -2M, or fail the roll and your movement is halved (as always, I made it clear that it was a me making a ruling in the moment situation)

That sounds like a variation of the Impairment Rule (6E2 111).

" ou can use this optional rule in conjunction
with the Hit Location optional rule.
Whenever the BODY damage done to an area
(before or afer the BODYx) is more than half
the character’s total BODY, that area is Impaired.
Consult the Impairment Table to determine the
effects of Impairment on different parts of the
body, and how long those effects last. Te Impairment effect for head and torso areas should only
occur if the character fails to make a CON Roll, or
at the GM’s discretion.
Tese effects are optional. Te GM should use
his judgment, with due regard for the nature of the
attack that caused the wound and the situation.
Sometimes applying these effects strictly is not
the way to have the most fun. Feel free to alter the
effects according to specifc circumstances.
Each part of the body is listed, and possible
effects of Impairment are discussed afer each
listing. If a character suffers multiple Impairing
wounds that impose penalties on him, those
penalties are cumulative."

The duration is a random roll between 1 Turn and 1 Day

And hte penalty: " Halve the character’s Running. Te character is -2 DCV because of his reduced mobility"

 

22 minutes ago, Manic Typist said:

2) Cover/angle penalties. One of the PCs made a game of teleporting around tossing enemies off a catwalk... but one of them he tossed happened to have a still loaded rifle. 

 

After the battle, the PCs didn't bother to check on the people they'd tossed earlier. Some of them had fled but one remained, lurking in the shadows, and lined up a shot while the PCs interrogated the people they'd captured. Mr. Sniper lined up for a head shot... and rolled a crit. Fortunately the PC had 18 BODY so after modifiers he was "only" at zero body but man did it scare them. I was worried about the reaction but took it in good stead and I think it underlined that this is dangerous for everyone, even if you are capable of amazing feats. 

 

But... perhaps there should have been some additional penalties based on the angle of shooting upward against someone on a catwalk, even if you had time to line up a shot. I'll review the rules for cover, etc.

Cover varies depending if you use the Hit Location Optional Rule. In either case it looks for the effective body percentage visible to the attacker.

 

Without hit location it caps out at 91-100% Cover (head showing) or -8 (6E2 41 and 43).

 

With Hit locations the rule is this:
" If the campaign uses the optional Hit Location
Table (6E2 108), Behind Cover works differently.
If a character has some cover from an opponent,
the GM should decide what Hit Locations are
covered. For example, a character standing behind
a desk would have his feet, legs, and (perhaps)
abdomen covered; similarly, a character fring a
pistol around a corner would only expose his head
and one hand, arm, and shoulder. Once the GM
determines what’s Behind Cover, combat occurs
normally. If an attack hits the Behind Cover
character, roll the Hit Location. If the Hit Location rolled is Behind Cover, the attack strikes the
cover instead. Tis usually means the target takes
no damage, although if the cover’s lightweight
or the attack was powerful, the attack may “blow
through” the cover and still have enough power to
damage the target " also 6E2 43

 

If I read it correctly, to guarantee a hit the attacker would have to use the "placed shoots" rule. And those to-hit penalties cap out at -8 too. 6E2 110

However if you rule they were "out of combat and surprisesd", the Placed Shoot Modifiers are halved (and the STUN damage doubled)

If you want to aim for a "general body region" or at a target in partial cover, 6E2 111 has you covered with "Special Hit Locations"

[Manic Typist]

Aside: Does anyone remember if there are rules (outside of 6E Impairment/Disabling) about how if a limb takes 1/3 of total BODY damage, it's destroyed/you can only do up to 1/3 of total body to a character if it's a non-vital limb (i.e. not head/chest/stomach/vitals)?

 

My first GM used this over a decade ago and I don't know if it was a house rule or a 5E rule.

[Doc Democracy]

Sounds to me like a port of Runequest (specifically RQIII) very similar principle.

[Chris Goodwin]

I remember seeing that in print in a HERO System book, though I can't remember which.  

[Ninja-Bear]

I thought it was first brought up in UMA 4th then becacame a rule in 5th rev..

[Chris Goodwin]

It's in 6e2 p. 107: Breaking Limbs, which also mentions severing them (damage equal to or greater than 1/3 the character's total BODY).  It's an optional rule to use instead of Impairing (damage >= 1/2 the character's total BODY) or Disabling (damage >= 1x the character's total BODY).  

[Manic Typist]

Some things I learned after the last session, and a question I'm still researching.

 

1) PC with the Reaper ability of going Desolid and flying around was sneaking through a place. In the moment, I decided that turning into a cloud of black smoke in a dimly lit environment would given him a +5 to his Stealth roll. However, reviewing the rules for Obvious/Inobvious Powers... it's a (-1) to Stealth per 10 APs for Obvious Powers, 20 APs for Inobvious. It's a Linked Desolid (60 AP) / Flight (67AP), which means (-6) and (-3) to Stealth for a total of (-9). Also, the Desolid was bought with Perceivable, so... it should probably give some kind of bonus to the PER rolls of others to notice on top.

 

2) The Desolid is defined as the Lesser Power, and is Linked such that it can only be used when the Greater Power (Flight) is used at full strength. Does that mean the PC needs to move the full 30m he paid for in order to the Desolid to be active?

[Hugh Neilson]

Sounds like someone went limitation-crazy. 

 

Perceivable means much more obvious than a typical Desolidification power.  What are its flashy special effects?  This black smoke must be very obvious and easy to notice, so it should definitely not be getting a stealth bonus.  Maybe it just stinks out to a wide radius?

 

And yes, "only usable when greater power is used at full strength"  means he must use the greater power at full strength to use the lesser one, so full speed ahead!  Might also want to brush up on Turn Modes when noting that issue.

[Manic Typist]

That someone is me, and so the fault is purely mine (and moreso for not remembering the Perceivable Limitation).

 

And thanks for the reminder on Turn Modes - I'm not used to a lot of these Powers and I still have a lot to learn.

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't often pay a lot of attention to turn modes, but it seems like I'd have to if someone has to fly at full speed in tight quarters, as that would definitely bring maneuverability into the equation..