indy523 Posted March 4, 2018 Report Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) Hi everyone, I am building a template for a serpentfolk type creature. Essentially it has the body and tail of a snake with no back legs. It is the size of a human more or less and has two humanoid arms. It can stand coiling up its body or crawl on the ground as a snake does. The arms are not needed for locomotion. It has the head of a snake with fangs that are poisonous and I am giving it a constriction attack. To simulate the constriction attack I was thinking of creating an Instinctual Snake Martial Arts. The main move is Grab Five Limbs (2+3) +10 STR (+2) and -1 OCV -1 DCV (-2) for five points. I also will add a Martial Escape that ups DCV, a Martial Block, defined as the coils of the body deflecting the momentum of the strike and a Strike, a quick STR strike. To up the constriction ability I will buy a HTH attack linked to the Squeeze effect of a Grab i.e. not with Slam or Throw just squeeze that does extra damage to the target being grabbed when the creature constricts with its body or squeezes. This I think will work well to cover what I want and I have a bite attack d6+1 KA, Penetrating +1/2A reduced Stun damage -1 (-1/4L) AVAD normal PD (-1/2L). I also bought it inaccurate -1/4L to reflect difficulty targeting the bite attack. The point of the bite is that there will be a poison linked to it that requires one body be done to a target i.e. the poison has to get into the bloodstream. This iI can figure out a well. The thing I am trying to determine is how do I get the bite attack to be made while constricting since that is another attack. The only thing I can think is to buy the bite attack with a trigger that is linked to the Grab as a 0 phase action the creature can bite while constricting on the same phase as one action. Note the trigger is linked and not the attack meaning that another attack roll must be made. Not sure how to do that. The last thing is I want CSL in the bite attack (say 12 points or +6 to the roll) that are only usable when attempting to bite a target that is helpless due to a grab to counteract the inaccurate so I guess this equates to a +3 effective addition to the to hit roll on a grabbed target. What do you think? Edited March 4, 2018 by indy523 spelling check Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthervian Posted March 4, 2018 Report Share Posted March 4, 2018 Can't be sure, because I am lack confidence in how much I know about the HERO System, but maybe just have them use the Multiple Attack maneuver when they want to grab (attack one) and bite (attack two). Both would be at -2, but i would think 2 Penalty Skill Levels specifically for covering that would make it work? indy523 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted March 4, 2018 Report Share Posted March 4, 2018 Check the bestiary for snakes/naga? dsatow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Instead of HA for squeezing just buy extra strength with limit only to squeeze. As for squeezing and biting I know I asked about something similar with elastic characters. Ie using whole body to coil around target. Iirc, the easiest would be to buy extra limbs with limit only to coil. You are just using the mechanical effect of extra limb to be able to hold your target and hit with another limb. Also I believe another way would be to buy clinging UAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 You can use multiple attack rules (as I recall you cannot use penalty levels to remove the OCV penalty from a multiple attack, incidentally) but usually for snakes the coil, get good and tight and then maybe bite, so its not a combo. I recommend extra strength limited for the grab as well. However, using two martial arts attacks at the same time is called a Combined Attack and has different rules (it doesn't suffer most of the penalties). This is where things get a bit confusing, for me at least: Quote Using two or more powers or similar abilities (but not Combat/Martial Maneuvers or the like) once against a single target isn’t a Multiple Attack. It’s a Combined Attack, and counts as type of Strike. Therefore it has no OCV penalty, doesn’t halve the attacker’s DCV, and doesn’t take a Full Phase to perform. [HSR 6, page 74] Multiple Attacks are defined primarily as being against multiple targets, or using a single attack multiple times (in some cases). Quote (Using two such powers multiple times against a single target, or against multiple targets, is a Multiple Attack and subject to all Multiple Attack rules.) For example, suppose a military robot in a Science Fiction campaign has a pulson blaster (Blast 8d6) built into its right hand and a laser (RKA 2d6, Armor Piercing) built into its left. If it fires each of them once against a single target, that’s a Combined Attack, performed as a standard Attack Action with +0 OCV, +0 DCV modifiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said: IAlso I believe another way would be to buy clinging UAA. Why UAA? After all, its just the viper clinging to the target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, dsatow said: Why UAA? After all, its just the viper clinging to the target. Because you are affecting a target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 5, 2018 Report Share Posted March 5, 2018 Btw I looked up Champions Powers. And alternate sfx for pseudopods is the stretcher throwing loops of his body around his target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted March 6, 2018 Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 17 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said: Because you are affecting a target. I think you can cling to another character without making another character cling to you. The second paragraph of clinging on 6e1p182 seems to indicate that a person with clinging can cling to another person. If that's true, why does the person need to make it usable against another. The person could just cling to the target rather than making the target cling to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 I believe the logic is that clinging isn’t an attack power but by making it UAA then it is. I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indy523 Posted March 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2018 On 3/5/2018 at 9:36 AM, Christopher R Taylor said: You can use multiple attack rules (as I recall you cannot use penalty levels to remove the OCV penalty from a multiple attack, incidentally) but usually for snakes the coil, get good and tight and then maybe bite, so its not a combo. I recommend extra strength limited for the grab as well. However, using two martial arts attacks at the same time is called a Combined Attack and has different rules (it doesn't suffer most of the penalties). This is where things get a bit confusing, for me at least: Multiple Attacks are defined primarily as being against multiple targets, or using a single attack multiple times (in some cases). Hmmm..... I am kind of not seeing the bite attack as part of the martial arts. I want the character to be less likely to hit with it hence the inaccurate limitation to halve OCV with the attack. The whole point is the character has to grab and hold his victim first then if he is successful he can attempt the bite which now gets the extra CSL. The trigger was necessary only because from what I read you could only make one attack on your phase. But multiple attack might work. The trigger is bought as a naked advantage so that it does not have to be applied. As to the extra STR for the squeeze. I want the constriction to do extra damage but not increase the STR for holding om. This way the character gets a chance to break out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Indy523 remember that if the character is grabbed, he is now 1/2 DCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 On 3/18/2018 at 8:08 PM, Ninja-Bear said: Indy523 remember that if the character is grabbed, he is now 1/2 DCV. Does that apply if the bite is effectively simultaneous with the grab? Lucius Alexander How does this palindromedary tagline grab you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, Lucius said: Does that apply if the bite is effectively simultaneous with the grab? Lucius Alexander How does this palindromedary tagline grab you? Hmmmm.....if it’s simultaneous then I don’t think ? so cause I believe the 1/2 DCV is for a successful grab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxxus Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 The old classic methods of simulating snake venom were to attach an NND killing attack that did body damage over time but required the initial bite to do body damage. I never liked this approach very much as it got VERY crunchy and lead to some incredibly high active point costs. The way I've always modeled the poison on snakes is just +Xd6 HKA that is limited by delayed onset, doesn't work vs. life support - poison immunity/resistance, and requires the initial attack to do damage. Keeps it simpler and you don't need NND since the defenses were already breached by the initial bite or there wouldn't be poison to worry about in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 That "classic" approach always bothered me, because I really don't think a chomp from small snake fangs does 1 BOD (i.e. three or four bites with no venom should see you in the hospital). Using JUST an NND KA, whose defenses improve, say, hard armor on the hit location (so the fangs can't penetrate) seems like a better model. For a credible Supers snakebite effect, perhaps the bite is only blocked by Hardened defenses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Lucius said: Does that apply if the bite is effectively simultaneous with the grab? Lucius Alexander How does this palindromedary tagline grab you? Hm, quite the Thread Necro you did there. Look out that the Thread does not develop a taste for Palindromedaries On 3/4/2018 at 11:55 PM, indy523 said: It has the head of a snake with fangs that are poisonous and I am giving it a constriction attack. An odd combination. Snakes in nature are normally constrictor or poision type, not both. While you can of course combine those two powers, that might make the build way too expensive. Even constructor snakes will still use their bite to inject saliva for pre-digestion. But then so do humans and all other species with saliva. For constrictors the bite/saliva it is not a major killing way. They use the other approach to make the target immobile. Basically there are 3 viable snake builds in nature and it might help if you follow only one of those rather then trying to combine them. There is a certain point cost balance inherent in nature: With magic, additional options present themself. I remember a Fey Realm snake that immobilized it's target with a Paralyzing Fear effect. On 3/19/2018 at 1:08 AM, Ninja-Bear said: Indy523 remember that if the character is grabbed, he is now 1/2 DCV. 1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said: Hmmmm.....if it’s simultaneous then I don’t think ? so cause I believe the 1/2 DCV is for a successful grab. CV penalties with Grabbing are Complicated. The Grabber has full OCV against the Grabee. While the Grabee has -3 OCV against the Grabber. Both have 1/2 DCV and 1/2 OCV against targets outside the grab. 1 hour ago, Toxxus said: The old classic methods of simulating snake venom were to attach an NND killing attack that did body damage over time but required the initial bite to do body damage. I never liked this approach very much as it got VERY crunchy and lead to some incredibly high active point costs. You can build then Venon and ht Bite as seperate attack powers that are linked. If so you can use both as a Combined attack - wich is a form of strike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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