Sketchpad Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 I was playing around with a few ideas and was wondering how folks build a Power Armory akin to what Iron Man has. Would you use Multiform to represent the various armors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 Multiform leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since I've seen too many players abuse it to build Everything Man - One form is a wealthy bachelor socialite, one is a batman-seque stealthy martial artist, one is a flying power projector, one is a super strong invulnerable brick, etc, etc, etc. In my head it's poor form for one PC to try to be Everything Man because it makes the other PCs redundant and unnecessary. If the team already has a stealthy martial artist or a trick arrow power projector on it, then those players have laid their claim on that shtick. There are enough super hero tropes out there that you can be something ELSE and not step on another PC. Also, IMO you spend your 400 points to build the hero you see in your head, NOT the hero you see on the pages of your favorite comic. Because to build a hero that can do EVERYTHING that, say, Daredevil or Wolverine or WHOEVER has EVER been shown to be able to do, at the level of competency that the comics portrays them to be at, you're looking at 1000+ points. But to answer your question then, yeah, you could use Multiform and have one form be Tony Stark, wealthy bachelor socialite industrialist who just HAPPENS to have been trained in stealth & hand-to-hand by Captain America, and then have other forms be his Hulkbuster armor, Stealth armor, Orbital armor, Deep Sea armor, etc. And one for his Every Day armor. But now we're back to Everything Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted November 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 Well, technically, Tony Stark is Everything Man as he's usually written. And whether it's Multiform or VPP, the character would have the same issues. I think the magic here is to limit it in-game. Slow down the transformation, RSR, etc. Is there a better option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 If you notice in most of the movies he has at most 2 suits; the one that gets trashed and the one he puts on afterwards. The only real exception to this is Iron Man 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 Sketchpad I understand where your coming from. But since this is Hero, it’s not the multipower fault but how the player is misusing it. I would rule out a Everyman per se, but make sure that the other roles don’t outshine any other PCs. What I see the Everyman would be nice would to fill in the other roles if no other players are playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 Multiform works. But another approach is to build the basic armour (all the common powers) and have a VPP to cover the special stuff each suit variant has. Or buy particular powers with the limitation "Only in xxxx suit", especially if the points differ a lot. However you build it, it's a back-at-base change. If you put on the Stealth Suit to run a mission, you'll be using that version during the mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 http://killershrike.com/MillennialMen/MillennialMen_WarMan.aspx http://killershrike.com/HERONet/Goodspeed.aspx DentArthurDent 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 2 hours ago, mrinku said: Multiform works. But another approach is to build the basic armour (all the common powers) and have a VPP to cover the special stuff each suit variant has. Or buy particular powers with the limitation "Only in xxxx suit", especially if the points differ a lot. However you build it, it's a back-at-base change. If you put on the Stealth Suit to run a mission, you'll be using that version during the mission. I like this idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 It's basically how most gadget pools work. Unlike a true cosmic VPP where you literally wish the effects into being on the spot, it's assumed that the gear already exists back at base, or at worst that you need to go back to base to construct or modify it. Depending on setting and character, a GM is well within their rights to require and restrict VPP options (i.e. "Tony, I'll let you have two suits under development, but you'll need to write those up ahead of time. Otherwise you'll need to jury rig an existing one with rolls.") The suits actually existing as separate things in storage (and in Iron Man's case this includes every previous power build he's ever had), is really just a special effect. Now and then it gets used as a plot point (someone borrows or steals a suit, Tony's main one gets taken out and he's forced to use an old model, using them a drones as a finishing move...) but that's either GM fiat or clever power trick territory (i.e. no points paid and next adventure we're back to normal). A lot of this could apply to Batman's garage. One bat-vehicle at a time, though Robin has access (and pays his own points for that), with occasional loaners as the plot requires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 6 hours ago, mrinku said: A lot of this could apply to Batman's garage. One bat-vehicle at a time, though Robin has access (and pays his own points for that), with occasional loaners as the plot requires. At least up until Batman realizes one of his cars has been "borrowed". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armory Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 My first Champions character was/is a powered armor type (yes, I'm still running him...he should be about 60 by now, thank God for comic book time..). I did at one time use Multiform but he ended up never changing suits in combat, so I just went with a VPP (once it was invented) as mrinku mentioned: I drew up different suits, each with pre-defined, specialized powers, then I just picked one before each scenario. He can still change the powers in the VPP of the suit he's wearing during combat, of course. To swap out a whole suit he'd have to head back home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrinku Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 As a rule of thumb, multiform is best used when each build is radically different. "Like my normal suit but swapping points spent on weapons for stealth powers" doesn't need it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted November 17, 2017 Report Share Posted November 17, 2017 If the basic suit is always the same, but you tack on modules (or extra armor) as needed, than it is probably going to be best to use a VPP to represent the modules. If you want to go full on Iron Man 3, than each suit is a Computer-Controlled/Assisted Vehicle, and you paid to have a few dozen extras (there is typically a lot of latitude given when applying the +5-point Doubling Rule to vehicles); for mechanical purposes all those extra suits in Iron Man 3 probably had the same stats. Considering he had been pumping out extra suits to cope with his PTSD for a while, I doubt there was anything particularly innovative about them. Multiform can also work, but I don't like the way it replaces your normal characteristics & skills, making it unsuitable for representing Power Armor that other characters can use. Perhaps a Vehicle with Multiform (which has been house ruled to allow its Alternate Forms to be other Vehicles on the grounds that it is a Vehicle itself, and not a character as the rules normally assume) that takes Extra Time and an RSR (Inventor) Roll to activate... which you could then buy multiples of to represent a character that has a limited number of suits of Powered Armor at a time, but which can have any combination of them he needs (Need three Hulkbuster suits and a Spacesuit? No problem!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted November 17, 2017 Report Share Posted November 17, 2017 Agree with Cantriped's final sentence: If going with the ability to have multiple armors usable at once (e.g. "I'm going to wear the Mark VI suit, while my buddy Rhodey wears my old Mark II suit") I'd think buying them as Vehicles, and then spending 5 points per doubling the number of them, would work best. Then you can buy a Computer / AI, also spending 5 points per doubling, to run them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted October 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 Oof... it's been a bit on this topic. But, once again, I have some questions on the idea. The basic idea is that the armors are various suits that a single hero would be using (Hulkbuster, Stealth, etc.). 1. Looking at VPP to represent various armors. Would you put a "Only used to create armored suits" limitation on it? I would imagine it would be a -1/4. I also see it as taking extra time to switch out settings. What are your thoughts? 2. Looking at vehicle rules as an option, wouldn't the 5 pts only make an exact duplicate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 9 hours ago, Sketchpad said: 1. Looking at VPP to represent various armors. Would you put a "Only used to create armored suits" limitation on it? I would imagine it would be a -1/4. I also see it as taking extra time to switch out settings. What are your thoughts? My questions would be, what is it about this limitation that limits what you can do. Personally, I dont think there is a huge limitiation on the fact that they are all armoured suits. Possibly if that limitation meant that they are all (at least) IIF and that the focus is trashable if someone does enough damage, then I would be up for the limitation. There would be some interest if the most relevant suit (the HulkBuster) got busted and then he had to go fight the Hulk with whatever suit happened to be available. 🙂 Duke Bushido and Sketchpad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 Multiform can be used without being abusive but there should be some limits. All forms should have the skills and perks. Why does putting on a suit of armor cause Tony Stark to forget all his scientific knowledge or cause his business to disappear? It does not so the character should pay for them. Even if the business or other perk cannot be directly used by the character they can still provide ongoing benefits. When Tony Stark gives an order to Stark Enterprises they will still keep working on it when he is in the armor. I would also put a limit on the number of suits to keep it from being abused. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 Did this ages ago. All the suits were OIF, all the suits were around 275. The limitation on the suit is that only could change the multiform when in the Garage. The basic chassis was similar and in most cases gave me the same speed and dex, with one being faster, and two being slower and more tankie. Some weapons were modular but had the same garage limitations. The suits were built for various environments, from Vacuum and hig radiation, to deep ocean, and places in between. One suit was a sensor suite with only small arms. It worked fine, and lots of fun was had. But then I was always the powered armored suit guy in our gaming group. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauntlet Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, LoneWolf said: Multiform can be used without being abusive but there should be some limits. All forms should have the skills and perks. Why does putting on a suit of armor cause Tony Stark to forget all his scientific knowledge or cause his business to disappear? It does not so the character should pay for them. Even if the business or other perk cannot be directly used by the character they can still provide ongoing benefits. When Tony Stark gives an order to Stark Enterprises they will still keep working on it when he is in the armor. I would also put a limit on the number of suits to keep it from being abused. Of course the multi-forms don't necessarily have to have the same skills or even memories. Plenty of individuals in comics who when they change they are a completely different individual. Even memories and personality being different. I have a character that I love that turns into a Bear, now while he might have some of the knowledge of his human self, friends and etc., he becomes a bear with the mindset of a bear. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) Multiform can be used for many different things, and in some cases, they will have different skills. But that is not the case for changing a suit of armor. In this case the same person is inside every suit of armor. Even in the case of something like lycanthropy some perks should still be paid by all forms. Does your contact that you asked for a favor stop doing that favor when you turn into a bear only to start doing again when you turn back to a human? If your human form has a follower that you have watching something, does he disappear when you are in bear form? If the perk can provide ongoing assistance or will take time to accomplish that perk should be paid for in all forms. Edited October 23, 2023 by LoneWolf Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauntlet Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 The big one I was referring to was in the Windcards series. I forgot the character's name, but he took a drug combo to make him completely change into someone else with powers and completely different personality and memories. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 It depends on the special effect of the multiform. When Bruce Banner changes into the Hulk he loses his scientific skills and memories. When Tony Stark put on different armor he is still Tony Stark. Hulk does not need to buy Bruce’s skills, But Iron Man should have all of Tony’s skills and memories. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauntlet Posted October 23, 2023 Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 I wasn't disagreeing with you, was just stating that it all depends on the actual character. Sketchpad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted October 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2023 11 hours ago, Doc Democracy said: My questions would be, what is it about this limitation that limits what you can do. Personally, I dont think there is a huge limitiation on the fact that they are all armoured suits. Possibly if that limitation meant that they are all (at least) IIF and that the focus is trashable if someone does enough damage, then I would be up for the limitation. There would be some interest if the most relevant suit (the HulkBuster) got busted and then he had to go fight the Hulk with whatever suit happened to be available. 🙂 I guess that's what I'm wondering. If the VPP is an "Armor Pool", would there be a limitation connotating that? Since the only thing you could build within the pool are suits of armor, and nothing else. It'd be a specialized version of a Gadget Pool I guess. It'd be a limit on what you could create with the pool. 6 hours ago, Gauntlet said: Of course the multi-forms don't necessarily have to have the same skills or even memories. Plenty of individuals in comics who when they change they are a completely different individual. Even memories and personality being different. I have a character that I love that turns into a Bear, now while he might have some of the knowledge of his human self, friends and etc., he becomes a bear with the mindset of a bear. But in relation to the topic, how would that work outside of the armor being a separate being? I could see things like Reputation, Contacts, or even certain Fringe Benefits being specific in some cases. Continuing the Iron Man example, there have been times that Stark and Iron Man were perceived as different people, so they may have some different perks. Tony may have a "Millionaire Playboy" reputation, while Iron Man may have an "Armored Avenger" one. The same could be said about Avengers Membership, or access to certain Stark facilities. That said, I agree for the most part that the core character behind the armor should be relatively the same. Really, it should be "build the person in the suit first, then build the armors around them" kind of character. At least that was my initial idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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