Mental Power Defense

[Christopher R Taylor]

 So in that regard Darkness to Mental Group, Obvious To Sight And Hearing Groups is perfectly legal, if somewhat difficult to imagine.

 

 

Yeah in this sense it would be more reasonably perceptible to mental sense groups, since mind scan is targeting.

 

I agree though, that perceptibility is generally left off of powers (its not even a category you can fill in for Hero Designer) so its more or less forgotten

[Doc Democracy]

Oh good grief, it balks the mind how darkness might work if it is not obvious to the sense it blocks.

 

Mental powers are always difficult because we cannot know how they work or how we could percieve them. As such, we have to rely on current senses for analogous situations.

 

So, explain to me (regardless of what the rules say) what darkness to sight might look like when it is not obvious to sight. I might then accept a darkness to mental power that is not obvious to mental powers.

 

I am suspecting that when Derek drafted the book he might have failed to anticipate this situation and write the rule to accommodate it.

 

 

Doc

[DasBroot]

In my game I handled the darkness to mental perception group as a 'hole' in the mind scan .... but didn't give them the exact location of the hole without them narrowing it down first in some manner.

 

For example (from actual play) - scanning the country for the big bad revealed a strange hole in the perception.  They didn't know where (not even distance - otherwise it defeats the point of buying the power to hide from mind scan) but it indirectly revealed that the target was somewhere in said darkness (which is probably borderline too much information if not over the line).

 

Later on, after several clues, they went to Arizona and scanned the state and found the same black hole but again no sense of distance or location... but at least they were in the right geographical area to start their detailed search.

 

Another time they pretty much knew where exactly a darkness field was because they scanned a building within visual distance and found a hole.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 They didn't know where (not even distance - otherwise it defeats the point of buying the power to hide from mind scan)

 

 

Not really, if a squid sprays ink in the water, you know where the ink is.  That's how darkness work, it obscures an area, it doesn't make the area hard to find.

[dmjalund]

Not really, if a squid sprays ink in the water, you know where the ink is.  That's how darkness work, it obscures an area, it doesn't make the area hard to find.

but the squid can hide in an area BEHIND the ink - not just within the ink itself (that is how it escapes)

[Cantriped]

So, explain to me (regardless of what the rules say) what darkness to sight might look like when it is not obvious to sight. I might then accept a darkness to mental power that is not obvious to mental powers.

Considering that Perceivability is irrelevant to the actual Effects of a Power (which is to say, it prevents anyone from perceiving into, out of, or through the affected area with the specified Sense(s):

Darkness To Sight Group, Imperceptible To Sight might create a sort of holographic 'freeze-frame'. To those outside the field it would display whatever was within or behind the field at the time it was generated, those inside the field would see everything around them, including themselves once they moved, frozen at the moment the field was erected, and be unable to see anything currently happening within or outside the field. Superficially it would look like time was frozen. But characters could ascertain through other senses that this was not the case. The Inobvious version would create a flawed hologram that flicked at the edges; allowing characters a Sight-Based Perception Roll to ascertain the power was in effect, but still preventing them from perceiving into, out of, or through the effect.

 

However... It is worth noting that despite functioning as a Targeting Sense, Mind Scan is not Sight, and shouldn't be held to preconceptions based on Sight. Sight is a uniquely sophisticated Sense in that it detects both the presence and absence of a thing (light) in fine detail.

Mind Scan works quite differently, allows us to either take a census of the number of minds in an area (Detect Number Of Minds) or Lock-On to a specific mind (Detect Direction And Distance Of A Specified Mind) and act as a Targeting Sense. Further, Mind Scan is never described as being or functioning as Mental Awareness. So per RAW, there is no reason for Mind Scan to be able to detect Darkness To Mental Group (which doesn't quality as a Mind, and may or may not even be considered a Mental Power).

 

A more appropriate example would be a Hearing Group Sense such as Active Sonar. Sonar detects objects by bouncing sounds off of them. If a character were Standing in a Darkness to Hearing Group field, the Sonar ping would be completely absorbed by the field. Thus it would never bounce off objects contained within or beyond the field, or return to the character using Active Sonar. From the perspective of the character using Active Sonar, that space would be perceived as an empty void, as would all the space beyond it (because the field is preventing perception into, out or, or through the field). Further, even if the field were Obvious to Sight and Hearing, a pink bubble-like optical effect accompanied by a loud thrumming noise for example, Active Sonar should not register the dimensions of the Darkness Field unless it was classified as a thing Active Sonar could detect (Physical Objects); despite being a member of the Hearing Group. Although Normal Hearing would perceive the loud thrumming noise (but not any other sounds generated within or beyond the field), and Normal Sight would perceive the pink bubble-like optical effect.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Mind Scan works quite differently, allows us to either take a census of the number of minds in an area (Detect Number Of Minds) or Lock-On to a specific mind (Detect Direction And Distance Of A Specified Mind) and act as a Targeting Sense. Further, Mind Scan is never described as being or functioning as Mental Awareness. So per RAW, there is no reason for Mind Scan to be able to detect Darkness To Mental Group (which doesn't quality as a Mind, and may or may not even be considered a Mental Power).

 

 

I would offer that since its not just a sense, but a targeting sense, it actually does pick up darkness, since that's what darkness does.  Again, this is a confusion between special effect and rules mechanic.  Darkness creates a perceivable area where a sense is obscured. The sense its perceived by is almost always the sense its meant to obscure (like Doc Democracy it makes my brain hurt trying to figure out how an area that obscures a sense is not perceptible by that sense).  

 

Mind Scan, per RAW, I'd argue it absolutely must perceive the darkness vs mental senses at least when used as a targeting sense... since its a mental sense.

[Cantriped]

The RAW doesn't support your argument (At least not CC/FHC). As a GM, it is perfectly reasonable to disallow powers that don't make sense to you or that the player has failed to justify/describe properly (such as an Imperceptible To Sight Darkness to Sight field), but that doesn't mean they are Illegal per RAW.

 

Being treated as a Targeting Sense only allows a sense to Detect a thing accurately enough to establish Line of Sight for the purposes of making Attacks. It doesn't expand the sense such that it can detect other things. Mind Scan is effectively functioning as Targeting Detect Mind, and Darkness To Mental Groups is not a Mind, therefore it shouldn't be perceivable by Mind Scan. Although depending upon the special effect of the field it might be perceivable by Mental Awareness, which can detect a whole slew of powers which are technically Imperceptible.

 

If a Barrier is Opaque to Sight, we don't perceive it with Normal Sight ​just because it is Opaque to Sight. If we can perceive it, it is because that Barrier was defined as being Obvious To Sight. Similarly If that same Barrier were Opaque to Hearing, we would not be able to perceive the barrier with Normal Hearing unless it was defined as being Obvious to Hearing. Although, just as with Mental Awareness being able to perceive Imperceptible powers of the appropriate special effect, Active Sonar (a Hearing-based Sense) might detect a Barrier Imperceptible to Hearing if it was defined as a Physical Object.

 

We don't have to be able to imagine a thing for the rules to say it is possible. There are plenty of perfectly legal constructs that make my brain hurt to imagine, but that doesn't make them illegal (it just means I'm less likely to allow them as a GM without an extremely good justification/explanation). For example, "Luck" is a perfectly legal Special Effect for Regeneration, such that someone with Drain Luck-Based Powers could affect that Regeneration Power just as legally as someone with Drain Regeneration could. The fact that it hurts my brain imagining how being Lucky could possibly result in your character regaining BODY at a fixed rate is irrelevant to the RAW.

Likewise, it doesn't matter if a Darkness to Sight field (or an Opaque To Sight Barrier) being Imperceptible To Sight boggles the mind, it is still a perfectly legal construct per RAW. It would be up to whomever using such a power to contrive a reasonable description for such a power (as I have done in my post above for an Imperceptible To Sight Darkness To Sight Field).

[Christopher R Taylor]

There are plenty of perfectly legal constructs that make my brain hurt to imagine, but that doesn't make them illegal

 

 

That's nice.  Get back to me when someone said it was illegal.

 

The RAW doesn't support your argument (At least not CC/FHC).

 

 

You're going to have to try harder to explain how the rules say that a sense cannot perceive the darkness targeted against it.

[DasBroot]

Not really, if a squid sprays ink in the water, you know where the ink is.  That's how darkness work, it obscures an area, it doesn't make the area hard to find.

 

I could see that.  It might somewhat mollify the table-grumbles if you could infer where the target was by what information you DIDN'T get - if ultimately Darkness to the Mental Group's biggest pek was toprevent a lock on  

 

That does leave invisibility vs the mental group as the superior defense against mind scan - but at a higher cost that's probably for the best.  

 

Though one player realise that shape shift can fool the mental group as well (in the character builder):

 

Homer? Who is 'Homer'? I am Guy Incognito:  Shape Shift  (Mental Group), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (3 Active Points)

 

And seriously ticked off the group psychic who had spent 80 AP on mind scan.  

 

Personally I just couldn't figure out how that would work, exactly - if you're looking for DasBroot with mind scan but he's mentally shape shifted into Generic Male does your mind scan fail if you don't have line of sight (which changes the targeting from DasBroot to 'that guy right there' no matter who they're mentally shape shifted to)? Would you have to look for Generic Male instead (who is not specific enough to require Imitation)?  How would you ever know who to look for? (I think locking on once would be enough to give it away - though they could then buy more 'shapes' when the jig was up).   

 

I meant to ask Steve when it happened, but the player who created the power decided it wasn't worth the table debate and didn't buy it.

 

I totally stole a variation on it for a super-villain later, though - a bunch of minions were wearing helmets with it limited to one shape only (their boss) and Imitation.  "I mind scan for Doctor Deathtrap." "He's in Queens. And the Bronx. Wait... he's in Times Square...."

 

Even that was a one shot because while we found it funny I still wasn't sure it was a fair representation of the effect.

 

But since it's on topic...

[Hyper-Man]

From 6e1 page 160:
 

Invisible Power Effects: The Source, Path, Special Effect, and/or Intensity of Sense-Affecting Powers are usually Invisible (even if the Power also belongs to a perceivable category, such as Attack Powers). Otherwise, Sense-Affecting Powers would be useless. However, the Target Effect is Obvious, since if it's not the Power can't affect the target. (Invisibility is a special case; see 6E1 239.) Thus, there's usually no reason to purchase Invisible Power Effects for them, but the GM may allow it if desired. For example, a character might want to create an Invisible Darkness field which would still interfere with Sight of those inside it (and those trying to look into or “through” it), but whose Source and/or special effects could not be perceivable. A character could also make a Sense-Affecting Power Invisible to a Sense it doesn't affect.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

Correct, you can make a power that is darkness to a sense, and have it not perceptible by that sense.  But that's not what Cantriped is arguing.  He's arguing that Mind Scan never is affected by a Mental sense darkness, and claiming that the rules as written demand it never be.

 

So per RAW, there is no reason for Mind Scan to be able to detect Darkness To Mental Group

 

[Cantriped]

That's nice.  Get back to me when someone said it was illegal.

Asinine attitude aside; here you are, just two posts earlier, asserting that a Darkness Power cannot be Imperceptible to the sense group(s) it affects: 

...Darkness creates a perceivable area where a sense is obscured. The sense its perceived by is almost always the sense its meant to obscure (like Doc Democracy it makes my brain hurt trying to figure out how an area that obscures a sense is not perceptible by that sense).  

 

Mind Scan, per RAW, I'd argue it absolutely must perceive the darkness vs mental senses at least when used as a targeting sense... since its a mental sense.No. You've entirely misunderstood me. So I'll say it again, slowly.

 

...you can make a power that is darkness to a sense, and have it not perceptible by that sense.  But that's not what Cantriped is arguing.  

No. That was exactly what I was arguing.

You can, per RAW, purchase a Sense Affecting Power (such as Darkness) which is Imperceptible to the senses it affects (see CC 43, 56, and 107).

 

 He's arguing that Mind Scan never is affected by a Mental sense darkness, and claiming that the rules as written demand it never be.

No I wasn't, you've entirely misunderstood me, and are misrepresenting me. So I'll say it again, slowly.

 

Mind Scan is a Mental & Sensory Power which "Allows a character to mentally search an area to find another mind." (CC 79). Mind Scan functions as a Mental Group Targeting Sense with a 360 degree arc of perception. Mind Scan can only Detect either the 'Number of Minds In A Target Area' or 'The Location Of A Single Specified Mind'. If it had been built as a Sense instead of being a unique power, it would have been Detect Minds (Mental), Targeting, 360 Degree Arc Of Perception, and most likely Tracking and Fully Penetrative.

 

Darkness To Mental Group X​m; Obvious To Sight And Mental Groups (-0) is not a Mind; therefore Mind Scan should not​ be able to perceive it, despite being a Mental Group Sense, and the Darkness Power being perceivable by Mental Group Senses. 

[Doc Democracy]

Your whole premise is based on the fact that Darkness is not a mind.  I would say darkness to mental group is essentially an area comprised of whatever it is that is detected as a mind (not necessarily a mind but 'mindstuff') and so the scan would see a large patch of impenetrable mindstuff.

 

I reckon I can assert that as confidently as you might disagree with it.  Neither of these things are a given under the rules but neither is ruled out.

[Hyper-Man]

The question has been submitted to Mr. Long.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

No I wasn't, you've entirely misunderstood me, and are misrepresenting me. 

 

 

but you said, clearly, and as I quoted above:

 

So per RAW, there is no reason for Mind Scan to be able to detect Darkness To Mental Group

 

 

So when you say that, it means you think mind scan cannot detect darkness to mental group.  Which was what I said.

 

Now, you can argue that darkness isn't a mind, but that's irrelevant since the point of darkness is to be a perceptible area which affects a sense.  Darkness needn't even have a physical presence to be seen in the usual sense of the word.  But its perceptible by the sense it affects or it wouldn't block the sense.  By its very definition and mechanic darkness absolutely is perceptible by the sense it blocks or it would not have any effect. 

 

asserting that a Darkness Power cannot be Imperceptible to the sense group(s) it affects

 

 

no, I did not.  Is aid it makes my brain hurt to imagine how it couldn't be.  Not that it could not possibly happen.  In that quote you selected I clearly noted it when I said this:

 

The sense its perceived by is almost always the sense its meant to obscure

 

 

See those words "almost always" there?  That necessarily means "sometimes does."  As in, "not impossible."

[g3taso]

Moving along, grailknight made the point that with mental Darkness the only remaining issue was Line of Sight. Going back to the example power of 

Darkness to Mental Group 1" radius, Personal Immunity (+1/4) (6 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)              all that good stuff, no END, just a nice ongoing more or less ongoing (but not Persistent effect). Looks like it blocks Mind Scan, but the other powers use the Sight Group and so they can target.

 

So if grailknight is correct (I think he is, but I'm away from home), what are some ways to prevent Line of Sight? Obviously, turning out the lights and dodging around a corner are examples. However, what are some other ways?

[g3taso]

but the squid can hide in an area BEHIND the ink - not just within the ink itself (that is how it escapes)

 

but the squid can hide in an area BEHIND the ink - not just within the ink itself (that is how it escapes)

 

That is an interesting point. However, in the real world that is sometimes not the case. Someone mentioned sonar and it's a good example (like sight) of something with a directional focus. I look out my eyes and since they point forward, they see what is in front of me.  I wonder if sound would really do that, even with a "no sound" zone around. I suspect some senses already not in the Sight Group (hearing, and particularly Unusual senses) might not be necessarily directional in nature. Anyone got some 5E thoughts on this?

[Cantriped]

...the point of darkness is to be a perceptible area which affects a sense.  Darkness needn't even have a physical presence to be seen in the usual sense of the word.  But its perceptible by the sense it affects or it wouldn't block the sense.  By its very definition and mechanic darkness absolutely is perceptible by the sense it blocks or it would not have any effect.

No. The 'point' of Darkness is to obscure perception into, out of, or through a space. The fact that a Darkness Power has been activated need not be perceivable in order for the power to serve it's function. You're getting too hung up on holding the power to preconceptions based on Normal Sight; which is pretty much the only sense that can normally detect both the presence and absence of a thing (Refracted Light). Other senses are not typically so accurate.

 

For example. The classic ​Silence​ spell of D&D would be built as Darkness To Hearing Group, Imperceptible To Sight And Hearing. You can neither see the area of effect (it isn't a glowing bubble) nor hear the area of effect (it doesn't make a distinctive sound). Unless you can confirm that something is amiss using one of your other senses (such as if you see that the affected person is banging their hammer against their shield, but you don't hear the 'clang!') you might not even realize that Silence​ has been cast. 

[Durzan Malakim]

For discriminatory senses such as vision and hearing, the absence of a signal (such as that caused by Darkness) nonetheless provides some information. Exactly how informative the lack of signal is depends on how keen the sense is, or in game terms, whether you have paid full price for either the Discriminatory or Analyze sense modifiers. Since Mental senses are neither discriminatory or nor allow analyzing by default, I'd say that the lack of signal in a mental darkness field does not by itself provide someone with enough information to say, "There's a hole in my perception 10 meters to the South." For that information you could rely on your normal discriminatory senses such as vision to say, "I can see the guy, but cannot sense a mind."

 

what are some ways to prevent Line of Sight? Obviously, turning out the lights and dodging around a corner are examples. However, what are some other ways?

 

• Darkness to sight
• Invisibility to sight
• Entangle that blocks sight
• Barrier that blocks sight
• Flash attack versus sight
• Suppress/Drain sight

[Doc Democracy]

This thread shows why senses have always been a difficult area, there are just enough variables and conflicts of real world stuff to confuse.

 

Hearing and vision, two different senses doing different things, how does darkness affect each? Cantriped makes a good point that darkness to hearing could be a decent model for a silence spell. That highlights the different nature of the senses, sight more actively scans an area and 'looks' into it whereas hearing is more passive relying purely on sounds arriving at the ear.

 

In physics terms there is no distinction, eyes detect light waves arriving at the organ, ears detect sound waves arriving at the organ. The difference is biological. With vision, the brain constructs a model of the world based on those light waves, mapping everything into that model and making the absence of input from an area obvious (a black hole in the model). Interestingly, if the hole is small enough, your brain will "fill in the blanks" based on previous expectations. The brain does not do that with sound, probably because vision is so much better for most things we needed evolutionary-wise. To me that suggests that hearing lacks something, probably an analysis or discrimination that hearing possesses.

 

The question is whether mind scan is more like hearing, or more like vision. I don't think the rules are explicit enough to tell us that. I could imagine Steve coming back with a provisional answer such as "well it depends on how many minds are around. If you are in a crowd and someone uses this power there would be an odd hole on the mindscape, empty of minds and where minds appear and disappear when folk enter and exit the zone. If you are an isolated location it would be like darkness used in a dark room, possibly unnoticeable".

 

Looking for compromise? Nah. Enjoying exploring how the rules model real things and extrapolate to extraordinary things? Hell yes. Need to be right? Probably not. :-)

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

The question has been submitted to Mr. Long.

 

HM

 

And here is his answer.

From:  http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/95581-darkness-vs-mental-sense-group-and-mind-scan/?do=findComment&comment=2592951

 

Q:

Hi Steve,

 

Would a Darkness Field only affecting the Mental Sense Group be detectable by a character using Mind Scan?  In other words, would the user of the Mind Scan Power automatically perceive the 'dead zone' if it were between/surrounding them and the 'target' of their scan?

 

Thanks!

 

HM

 

A:

I don’t currently have access to all of my books and materials, which have been packed up as part of my home renovation project, so I reserve the right to edit or change this answer at a future time.

 

As noted on 6E2 14, Mental Sense Group Darkness effectively “blacks out” Mind Scan. To put that another way, the character using Mind Scan will be aware that something is “blocking” or “interfering with” his Mind Scan. He won’t know exactly what or why, but he will be aware that something is stopping his power from sensing as it normally would.

 

HM

[Hyper-Man]

Here is the relevant section from 6e2 page 14:

 

Darkness And Flash Versus The Mental Sense Group
The Mental Sense Group is affected by Flash and Darkness somewhat differently than most other Sense Groups. This is because Mental Powers can be targeted two ways: through eyesight (or other Targeting Senses) or through Mind Scan.

A Darkness versus the Mental Sense Group prevents any use of Mental Awareness or Mind Scan by affected characters. It also prevents the use of Telepathy and Mind Link, since, like a Darkness versus Hearing, it affects both the “mental hearing” and the “mental voice” aspects of those Powers. However, if the victim has LOS to his target, he can still use Telepathy and Mind Link on that target, since they work either through a Mind Scan “circuit” or through LOS. Mind Scan itself does not work on an LOS basis, so it doesn’t matter whether a character in a Mental Sense Group Darkness field can see his target — the Mind Scan is effectively “blacked out.”

 

HM

[Cantriped]

I'm not suprised to find that I disagree with part of Steve Long's answer, the quoted text (provided by Hyper-Man above) doesn't actually support Steve's assertion, however this bit:

"[the user of Mind Scan] won’t know exactly what or why..." is especially relevant to the point I've been trying to make, though I entirely disagree with the rest of that paragraph...

However, I also think the question might have received an inaccurate answer because it was not worded as well as it could have been. The question failed to specify the Perceivability of the specific Darkness Power being questioned. For example, Darkness To Mental Group, Obvious To Sight And Hearing might have received a different answer than Darkness To Mental Group, Obvious To Sight And Mental (the later is what I can only guess Steve Long was assuming), and Darkness To Mental Group, Imperceptible To Sight And Mental might have gotten a different answer still. Per (CC's) RAW, all three of these are legal powers by the way, and it stands to reason they should be perceived/perceivable differently. 

[Hyper-Man]

You are welcome to post a follow-up question for Steve. He was usually answers the next morning.

 

HM