Two-Weapon Fighting; Using a Whip and Pistol

[xylden76]

Team,

 

First time poster, and first time GM for a Heroes game.  We're in a Heroic Dark Hero Campaign, 150pts. One of my characters has an intriguing character concept, where he wants to use a whip in one hand to "snare and trip" an opponent, and then shoot him/her in the back with a pistol as the opponent is on the ground.

 

I've looked at the rules and cannot figure out how to do it.  Is the whip attack a grab or an entangle?  Is the attack a multi attack or a combined? Can he do all this in one phase? How would you more experienced GMs build his character, and using what rules/mechanics to do it?

 

Please help, I'm super confused.

[Doc Democracy]

What you will find is that there is always a multitude of ways to do things in HERO and you may get quite a few folk providing you with options.  All of them will be more or less rules correct, some will point out where you, as GM, need to make decisions on what you will allow and all of them will have pros and cons.

 

Now, as usual for a player, this one has a visual that they want to play out in game.  I am presuming that the idea is that the player wants to do something that gives him a combat advantage.  My first question, as GM, would have been

 

"Are you content to try and do this stage by stage using the combat rules or do you want this to always work when you try it?"

 

There is a combat manoeuvre called Trip.  That could be used at range by the character to render the target prone.  If the target does not manage to get to his feet before the characters next action, the advantages are all there for the character to shoot him with the pistol in his other hand. This relies on a few rolls going well and will depend on how quick the character is in relation to those people he intends to trip and shoot.  :-)

 

On the other hand you can spend points on making things work the way you want them.  

I would guess that the main reason the player wants this (beyond being a cool visual) is that he wants to have a more reliable way of shooting an opponent.  He could simply buy +5 OCV with pistol and limit it with (only against opponents that could be tripped using a whip +1/2 AND only when dual wielding a whip and a pistol +?).  That makes the levels cheaper to buy but makes it far easier to hit opponents when fighting this way.  The opponent is not prone and does not have to make rolls to get up but the player does not have to make rolls to accomplish the trip nor go through the whole STR vs STR thing.  It also can be used every single action.  The visual would be the same, "the whip snakes out causing the opponent to crash to the floor and the character shoots him in the back as he scrambles to his feet".

 

You will note that I listed the value of the second limitation as +?, that is to reflect the fact that I do not know how often that the character would be without access to both.  If the assumption is that most of the time, both these are available, then this limitation is worth no points.  If you were to manage it so that there were times when he would be without one or the other then it might be worth +1/4 or +1/2, probably.  Your judgement.

 

The question is, would the player be content with this?  Are you content to give him the +5 with his pistol under these circumstances?  

 

There are going to be other options offered, I am sure, which will accomplish the same, or render the opponent prone, or helpless or whatever.

 

What you need to think about is what the player's expectations of this are - ask him.  Find out whether he just wants that better opportunity to hit, whether he wants the opponent prone, whether he wants the sort of automatic success I outlined or just wants to know how to use the combat rules to achieve this kind of thing.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

I think Doc nails it.

 

A Multiple Attack allows the character to make multiple attacks in a phase, which would mean he could use the Whip to Grab the opponent and Throw him to the ground, and shoot him. The Multiple Attack normally takes a full phase, but Rapid Attack can reduce that to a half phase.

 

It also halves his DCV, which may be painful. Getting around that would be a potentially expensive investment in limited DCV (e.g. +5 DCV only when Multiple Attacking could increase a base DCV from 5 to 10, which then halves back to 5).

 

Each attack beyond the first reduces OCV with all attacks by 2, so one whip grab + 1 pistol shot = -2 OCV. Mixing ranged and HTH attacks imposes a further -2 OCV penalty, so he's starting at -4 OCV. Again, levels or penalty skill levels could offset this. If one attack roll fails, the rest fail, so if he does not hit with the whip, the gun misses (that fits - he was aiming where the prone target should have been, but he's not there).

 

He also takes the worst of the Grab and Strike DCV penalties, so -1 OCV and -2 DCV.

 

I've ignored the Trip maneuver since, RAW, Trip cannot be used with Grab, but who cares? The modifiers to OCV and DCV are the same as Grab, and Grab can slam the target to the ground, also doing STR damage, and has other options.

 

As Doc notes, the alternative to using the various combat maneuvers is to buy an ability that simulates some or all of the effects of the desired combination, with "knock him down with the whip, then shoot him" simply a special effect.

 

The usual rule is that the target's DCV is unchanged through the sequence, with a GM Option that one attack that impacts DCV can reduce it for later attacks. If I were the GM, I would allow that here.

 

Only skill levels that could apply to both attacks can be applied to a Multiple Attack.

 

For sure, you and the player should go over the Grab and Multiple Attack rules in detail, both to be confident the character is getting the effects the player envisions and to ensure game play is not slowed as you read through several pages of rules on these maneuvers.

 

Being really effective at this will probably be a pretty hefty point investment, but some of those points will likely also be useful in other circumstances (eg. any skill levels will likely also be useful if he has only a pistol, or only a whip, or even if the target is outside the reach of the whip).

[Doc Democracy]

I think the one thing I would want to add is to ignore the names of manoeuvres and concentrate on the effects they provide.  It is fine for a manoeuvre to be called Trip but it tends to mean people think of tripping up their opponents.  It can, instead, mean lashing at them with a whip and leaving them prone on the ground (not exactly a trip) or using some other method that renders an opponent prone through the use of overcoming their STR with your own...

 

You can always amend the manoeuvre for a particular character as long as you do not unduly unbalance the drawbacks or benefits provided.  Use them creatively as templates and you can provide your players with far more evocative combat manoeuvres despite them pretty much providing the same mechanical benefits.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd allow a whip to Disarm and Trip, but as described in RAW, it can only Grab. No big deal, as throwing someone to the ground can be achieved using a Grab (and immediate followup) anyway.

 

I'd prefer to see a rule like "maneuvers can be used with any weapon or attack, provided it complies with common and dramatic sense". There's no reason you can't sweep someone's feet out from under them with a spear, or Blast them to the ground with your ConcussionBurst, using a Trip maneuver.

[xylden76]

thanks for the feedback!  This gives us lots to work with and I appreciate the time you took to help me out.