Steve Long Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 A rules question someone posted today raises an issue that I thought was worth discussing: How common is it for characters in your campaign to use CSLs to add damage? In my experience, it's pretty rare. Over 35 years of playing this I've probably seen someone do it less than ten times. But maybe the groups I've played with are unusual in this respect. Is using CSLs for damage common in your games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 In my experience the players will instead use them for OCV to make called shots. The only time I have seen a player do it I can recall was because I had a villain do it to him and so he tried it himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 I find it pretty rare in Supers, where DC limits also tend to be tightly enforced. I see it more often in heroic games, especially against opponents with a relatively low DCV and high defenses. Called shots are often more dicy, especially if the character has only a few skill levels to devote to the task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 i had two players do it regularly in one game, but only with their characters in that campaign. In other games the same players didn't do it very often. It was almost like a contest between them to see whose character could do the most dice. I wouldn't say it's that rare, but you need a character built to take advantage of it. Usually people just buy more dice if they're looking to hit harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 I've had players use it in an Avatar like game and it worked pretty well. I've used it to represent heroes and villains who are very experienced with their powers and thus more effective. It sees more use in Martial Arts themes than anything else, IME, and still is used more for OCV/DCV than damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 I used to do it all the time, when I got to play instead of GM. In fact, I like to develop martial arts/fighting styles bases around allocation of CSLs far more than the existing Martial Arts rules. To me it just seems more natural feeling than the a'la carte menu of maneuvers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 In heroic games we used to do it all of the time. It works very well with Killing attacks. With Normal Attacks not so much. Also, I saw it way more often in Heroic Games where the PC's have a much more limited Push option. Also using 4 Skill levels for 2DCs works out better than calling any of the -4 hit locations. Also I think it's different because I find that Heroic Characters often have a lot more Skill levels than Champions Characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 I often build characters, even superheroic ones, with at least 2 3-point CSLs expressly for the purpose of them being able to choose to sacrifice accuracy for added damage and vice versa. I also frequently give martial characters a few Targeting and/or Range PSLs in addition to their CSLs and/or Martial Arts. I've found that in Superheroic campaigns, the prevalence of unusual attack powers discourages the use of CSLs as a source of Added Damage. The rules as written don't accommodate doing things like using 3 CSLs to add 7.5 APs to a Penetrating Blast to get +1d6; instead you have to either use 4 CSLs and accept wasting 2.5 APs, or use 6 CSLs to get +2d6. As others have said though; CSLs get a lot more use in Heroic campaigns where the weapons are all fairly weak, and the only way to deal more damage is to be stronger (not always realistic or possible), or use CSLs and Martial Arts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Wouldn't you just use the advantaged damage classes chart to see what adding damage classes to a given power actually does in terms of effect dice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted January 13, 2017 Report Share Posted January 13, 2017 Neither Champions Complete, nor Fantasy Hero Complete (my primary rules references) have that chart; nor have I ever felt like I needed it. The issue isn't one of calculation (I've got an app for that), its one of mechanical efficiency. Unlike STR or Aid/Boost, Martial Arts and CSLs only add to damage in 5 APs increments. Meaning that when you add 2 DCs to an Armor Piercing Blast (6.25 APs per +1d6), you're stuck leaving 3.75 APs on the table. Likewise if you ass 2 DCs to a Penetrating Blast (7.5 APs per +1d6), you lose the remaining 2.5 APs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 I've seen it done regularly but it depends on the player and how comfortable they are with skill levels (about 1 out of 6 players on average). This average is higher in Heroic level games rather than Super level games and how often the player plays those games. Those players who are more comfortable with skill level mechanics will do so regularly. As a GM I don't use it regularly as I design the villains to be a certain power level and it makes running the villain more complex. As a player, I usually don't visualize a character with more than 3 levels so its usually more advantageous to get the CV bonus. I've had skill twids (lots of skill levels) or people using deadly blow (which is based off of skill levels) like to use it. My problem is that it adds straight DC for relatively cheap (say two 3 point levels (6 points) to get 1 DC doesn't sound bad until it adds straight damage to a +2 stun, 2xAP, indirect cumulative constant RKA (over exaggerated but you get the point). Capping the DC as 5 active usually makes people with deadly blow upset as they are spending 12-19 points on it to get 3 DCs. Personally, I see both sides of the camp, but its still a little shocking to see when your Batman martial arts clone sees a stunned supervillain and moves all his levels to damage and does the same amount as the Superman brick clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted January 14, 2017 Report Share Posted January 14, 2017 My problem is that it adds straight DC for relatively cheap (say two 3 point levels (6 points) to get 1 DC doesn't sound bad until it adds straight damage to a +2 stun, 2xAP, indirect cumulative constant RKA (over exaggerated but you get the point). I'm not sure about core 6th, but in CC/FHC; Increased STUN Multiplier, Armor Piercing, and Constant are all advantages Added DCs are prorated against, meaning you'd need to add 12.5 APs (which requires 6 CSLs) to get +1 DC (i.e. to increase a 1d6 RKA to 1d6+1). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Personally, I see both sides of the camp, but its still a little shocking to see when your Batman martial arts clone sees a stunned supervillain and moves all his levels to damage and does the same amount as the Superman brick clone. The extra damage simulates Batman kicking the villain in the nuts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealone Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Neither Champions Complete, nor Fantasy Hero Complete (my primary rules references) have that chart; nor have I ever felt like I needed it. 'Complete' being like 'unique' and 'pregnant' (i.e. binary -- something either is or isn't 'complete', 'unique', or 'pregnant'), those books aren't exactly 'complete', are they? (This is a rhetorical question...) Also, I saw it way more often in Heroic Games where the PC's have a much more limited Push option. Also using 4 Skill levels for 2DCs works out better than calling any of the -4 hit locations. Also I think it's different because I find that Heroic Characters often have a lot more Skill levels than Champions Characters. I'd like to echo Tasha's words, here, as I, too, have seen almost no usage of skill levels for DC's in Super Heroic games, by have seen it quite often in Heroic games. Like Tasha, I suspect the increased tendency for Heroic Characters to have more skill levels ... coupled with a more limited ability Push ... are the two main drivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 'Complete' being like 'unique' and 'pregnant' (i.e. binary -- something either is or isn't 'complete', 'unique', or 'pregnant'), those books aren't exactly 'complete', are they? (This is a rhetorical question...) I am very biased, given that CC & FHC are my primary rules references, but I consider them "complete" enough to deserve the name. In the sense that if I can accept that "Final" Fantasy can get away with more than 13 sequels, then I can accept that Champions can be complete without reprinting every single table and optional rule ever devised. I'd like to echo Tasha's words, here, as I, too, have seen almost no usage of skill levels for DC's in Super Heroic games, by have seen it quite often in Heroic games. Like Tasha, I suspect the increased tendency for Heroic Characters to have more skill levels ... coupled with a more limited ability Push ... are the two main drivers. The big driving force behind the prevalence of using CSLs for Added Damage in my mind is the equipment system. In a superheroic campaign, if you want your Destreum Katana to do more damage, you can simply pay to increase the dice of damage. In a heroic campaign, if you want your semi-automatic pistol to do more damage, the GM may or may not let you simply "buy a better pistol than everyone else" (or buy a naked damage bonus for semi-automatic pistols). If the GM does, he force you to pay the full CP value of the "better" semi-automatic pistol, as a result it becomes more cost effect to instead be able to make any regular semi-automatic pistol better by having CSLs or Martial Arts to improve damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 I think the relative lack of increases in CSL's in most supers games compared to heroic stems from a couple of things. In previous editions of HERO it appeared to be more 'cost effective' to buy up DEX since CV was 'figured' from it. This also led to DEX inflation issues as well. GM's tend to to try and put the brakes on CSL XP increases as they essentially require the GM to do the same for any recurring villains they use (home brew or published). HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 'Complete' being like 'unique' and 'pregnant' (i.e. binary -- something either is or isn't 'complete', 'unique', or 'pregnant'), those books aren't exactly 'complete', are they? (This is a rhetorical question...) Can we not revisit this flame war, please? Any game publisher who creates a game that is truly "complete", in this marketplace, has likely written themselves out of business as they can't sell any further materials - the game is already complete without them, so what could there be to add? I am very biased, given that CC & FHC are my primary rules references, but I consider them "complete" enough to deserve the name. In the sense that if I can accept that "Final" Fantasy can get away with more than 13 sequels, then I can accept that Champions can be complete without reprinting every single table and optional rule ever devised. I think they are "Complete" in that both the rules and the genre are covered in a single volume, making them more immediately playable than, say, the 5e or 6e core rules, and playable, unlike 4e/5e Champions and Fantasy Hero, both of which either required the core rules. I'd like to echo Tasha's words, here, as I, too, have seen almost no usage of skill levels for DC's in Super Heroic games, by have seen it quite often in Heroic games. Like Tasha, I suspect the increased tendency for Heroic Characters to have more skill levels ... coupled with a more limited ability Push ... are the two main drivers. The big driving force behind the prevalence of using CSLs for Added Damage in my mind is the equipment system. In a superheroic campaign, if you want your Destreum Katana to do more damage, you can simply pay to increase the dice of damage. In a heroic campaign, if you want your semi-automatic pistol to do more damage, the GM may or may not let you simply "buy a better pistol than everyone else" (or buy a naked damage bonus for semi-automatic pistols). If the GM does, he force you to pay the full CP value of the "better" semi-automatic pistol, as a result it becomes more cost effect to instead be able to make any regular semi-automatic pistol better by having CSLs or Martial Arts to improve damage. I had not considered equipment, but I think that's a huge difference. As well, the expectation of "normal human" STR also means that CSLs to add to HTH damage/muscle powered attacks becomes a more likely choice as other avenues are closed off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 My player use it all the time. Typically they start out with CSLs on OCV to make sure they connect, but if their first attack(s) don't get enough damage through they'll shift them to damage. I'd say CSLs get used for OCV maybe 50% of the time, damage maybe 35%, and DCV maybe 15%. Unlike others, I haven't noticed a difference between heroic & supers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 The extra damage simulates Batman kicking the villain in the nuts. With the Batman's levels, he probably could split the Empire State Building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 I'm not sure about core 6th, but in CC/FHC; Increased STUN Multiplier, Armor Piercing, and Constant are all advantages Added DCs are prorated against, meaning you'd need to add 12.5 APs (which requires 6 CSLs) to get +1 DC (i.e. to increase a 1d6 RKA to 1d6+1). Actually just reviewed the rules for it. The cost (beyond its minimum of 3 points per level) does not have anything to do with the increase of damage. Instead, the +1 DC is treated like all other bonus DCs (like the +4 DCs from haymaker) and you apply the DC quick reference table(6E2 p101). So, after careful review, and my general dislike to have to refer to a table in a book for HERO games, at least in my games, +1 DC will mean a 5 active point bonus to the power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Yes, +1 Damage Class (or DC) always equals +5 active points. If the Power is an unmodified Blast, than +1 DC equals +1d6 Blast. However, If the Power being added to has certain modifiers, then added DCs have to pay for them (see CC 156, or FHC 183). For example, if you have a Penetrating (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) Blast, you'll need to add +2 DCs in order to gain +1d6 Penetrating, Double Knockback Blast. This is because 1d6 of Penetrating, Double Knockback Blast has a value of 10 Active Points for the purpose of the rules for added Damage Classes. Likewise if you have a Constant (+1/2) Blast, for every +3 DCs you add, you only gain +2d6 Constant Blast. This is because 1d6 of Constant Blast has a value of 7.5 Active Points for the purpose of the rules for added Damage Classes. This, by the way, is exactly why I've rarely seen CSLs added to damage in Superheroic campaigns... who wants to deal with all that complicated math during play, when they can just buy as much damage as they wanted to do outright instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 This, by the way, is exactly why I've rarely seen CSLs added to damage in Superheroic campaigns... who wants to deal with all that complicated math during play, when they can just buy as much damage as they wanted to do outright instead. I know many players that will do that in their head easily. Of course all of them are engineers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantriped Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 To make it easier to calculate, I often include the exact number of active points needed to increase effect in the notes for a given power. For example, In the notes for a Penetrating Blast, it would state "+1d6 per 7.5 APs". Such notes are especially important when your Magic System allow CSLs to add to the effects of unusual powers (such as Barrier) as a campaign rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 As a GM I'm willing to do some handwaving here in the interest of keeping things moving. But as a player, if I have attacks with +X worth of Advantages, and I have 2 CSLs that I could apply to that attack, it's not hard to work out between sessions (or at least between Phases) how much that is and either jot it down or remember for next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted February 2, 2017 Report Share Posted February 2, 2017 We've only got 1 character that uses CSL for extra damage. We generally don't use that rule. However, the player asked and the GM's all agreed. Maybe this will open the way for other characters to use it, but we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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