Christopher R Taylor Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 I've been thinking about an attack that seems challenging to build in Hero. It does x damage, say, 12d6, but split evenly between all targets. So if there are 4, it does 3d6 each, if there are 2, they take 6d6 each. Its sort of an area effect, but it only hits a single target if there's only one person there (it doesn't damage anything else in the area). My concepts are: 1- 12d6 Radius, with limitations that make it do less damage to each target the more are in the area and only damage targets (possibly an advantage). 2- 1d6 radius, with lots of linked 1d6 attacks structured so each target takes the damage evenly divided. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 I'd go with a Custom Limitation using the value of Reduced Penetration as a starting point. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 28, 2016 Report Share Posted October 28, 2016 A lot also depends on your definition of "targets" as it appears to be based on them being alive. Reminds me of attempts to build attacks vs. 'evil'. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Here's one way to do it. 30 Pain!: Mental Blast 1d6 (standard effect: 3 STUN), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant Mental Defense; All Or Nothing; +0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OCV against DCV; +0), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point is the Character, path can change with every use; +1/2), Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2), Area Of Effect Accurate (8m Radius; +3/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (10 shots; +2) (60 Active Points); Limited Power - Effect is split evenly as possible among all available conscious targets besides owner in affected area (-1/2), No Range (-1/2) - END=0 HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 I thought about autofire too, but its so expensive with area effect. It could work though, give either 10d6 or 1d6 to 10 targets the way you built it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Hyperman's construct is an NND, but for an attack against a defense, wouldn't each of those d6 be applied separately against the defenses of the target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 I think I would go a little different and use it as a modifier to AoE. Probably as a -1/2 called something like "Split Damage". AoE already has a +1/4 as a minimum, so that is handled. I would probably require that you use either Selective or Non-Selective in combination with it for my version to avoid the "what is a target" question. Say you did the 12d6: 12d6 Blast, AOE: Radius, 8m, Selective, Split Damage (+1/4) (75 AP) You can roll to hit any target in a 8m radius that you want, with the damage split as evenly as possible. I would probably say misses still deduct from the total, but it would need some play testing, it might be balanced to split it evenly not counting misses. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Why not just use the alternate Spreading Attacks rule (6E2, Page 49)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 I think the key issue is the mandatory nature of the splitting and defining what it's actually being split between. I went with an Mental Blast specifically to deal with that issue. I could have easily used Penetrating instead of AVAD but it would actually cost more! My solution has some special effect (mental) built in due to the nature of the mechanical puzzle presented. HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 Hyperman's construct is an NND, but for an attack against a defense, wouldn't each of those d6 be applied separately against the defenses of the target? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 If you don't like the constructs so far, you could also go with something a little simpler. 12d6 Blast, AoE: Radius, 4m (+1/4) (75 Active Points) Partially limited as follows: 6d6 only if there is only 1 available conscious targets besides owner in affected area. (-1/2) 2d6 only if there are 2 or less available conscious targets besides owner in affected area. (-1/2) 1d6 only if there are 3 or less available conscious targets besides owner in affected area. (-1/4) 1d6 only if there are 4 or less available conscious targets besides owner in affected area. (-1/4) 1d6 only if there are 7 or less available conscious targets besides owner in affected area. (-0) 1d6 No limitations Vary the limitations to taste. You could also add an advantage (something similar to Conforming, perhaps) to limit the collateral, but I am not really sure how much of an advantage that really is since you could never use this for breaking through walls, flashy presence attacks and the like. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 If not built using Mental Blast as a starting point how would this work vs. Automatons? How about 'swarm' special effect attacks? HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted October 29, 2016 Report Share Posted October 29, 2016 If not built using Mental Blast as a starting point how would this work vs. Automatons? How about 'swarm' special effect attacks? HM For me, that would depend on SFX. You could easily rule one way or the other as a GM when the power is created. Swarms I have built in the past as straight AOE. My reasoning here is that there are plenty of attacks to go around, but targets can only be hit by a certain number in the time of the effect (basically per phase). Again, SFX could vary this, though, as with most things in Hero. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 What are you trying to model? I mean, what is the attack supposed to be in-game rather than mechanically? The problem with this sort of build is that, because of how Hero defences work, splitting 12d6 into two 6d6 attacks mean that damage through defences will be negligible. Hyper-Man's NND attack neatly sidesteps that issue, but if you are not using NND then the attack is probably going to be pointless even with 2 targets, certainly with 3 or more. So: first things first - is this an AoE? AoE means you can attack multiple targets within an area, and they are all relatively easy to hit whatever their combat value. Is that what is happening? Bear in mind you COULD do a 12d6 attack in a multipower with the other slots having increasing amounts of AoE. This is not quite what you describe, but does mean the large the net, the less the damage per (potential) target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Why not just use the alternate Spreading Attacks rule (6E2, Page 49)? That was my first thought too. But Spreading doesn't halve the damage, it just reduces is 1d6 per additional hex, so it's not quite the same thing. I think I would go a little different and use it as a modifier to AoE. Probably as a -1/2 called something like "Split Damage". AoE already has a +1/4 as a minimum, so that is handled. I would probably require that you use either Selective or Non-Selective in combination with it for my version to avoid the "what is a target" question. Say you did the 12d6: 12d6 Blast, AOE: Radius, 8m, Selective, Split Damage (+1/4) (75 AP) Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. Tho I think Split Damage would be worth at least a -1; if it were a standalone Limited Power, the power loses half its effect if you have even 2 people present, so that's a -1. And I'm of two minds whether it would work best as a modifier on the cost of the AoE, or as a standalone Lim - GM's call. Selective may not be exactly the modifier you want, since that normally lets you choose who to hit; maybe something like "Does no damage to environment" or however you want to define it, or just incorporate that into how you define "Split Damage" and reduce the value of that accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 That was my first thought too. But Spreading doesn't halve the damage, it just reduces is 1d6 per additional hex, so it's not quite the same thing. Good point. Sounds to me like it's time for a custom rule: Splitting an Attack. Same principal as Spreading, but divide the total dice/DC by the number of targets. You could always look at some convoluted method of doing it with Advantages and stuff, but I think that losing power/utility is a pretty even trade. Attacks with the Beam Limitation, Autofire attacks, and Area of Effect attacks are excluded. You still have to make the attack at -2 for every target after the first. It's not really abusive at all, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 That was my first thought too. But Spreading doesn't halve the damage, it just reduces is 1d6 per additional hex, so it's not quite the same thing. Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. Tho I think Split Damage would be worth at least a -1; if it were a standalone Limited Power, the power loses half its effect if you have even 2 people present, so that's a -1. And I'm of two minds whether it would work best as a modifier on the cost of the AoE, or as a standalone Lim - GM's call. Selective may not be exactly the modifier you want, since that normally lets you choose who to hit; maybe something like "Does no damage to environment" or however you want to define it, or just incorporate that into how you define "Split Damage" and reduce the value of that accordingly. Up to you (or your GM), obviously. The reason I went with -1/2 is because WHERE you place the AOE often determines how many people will be in the AOE, which makes it much less of a limitation in my mind. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I'd say probably 1/2 at most as well, its not that big a disadvantage to hit two people half as hard as one. Does no damage to environment is probably a 1/4 advantage at most; its almost a push because it limits its use, but it has advantages as well and any time you can use an AE safely in an area its advantageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 I've been thinking about an attack that seems challenging to build in Hero. It does x damage, say, 12d6, but split evenly between all targets. So if there are 4, it does 3d6 each, if there are 2, they take 6d6 each. Its sort of an area effect, but it only hits a single target if there's only one person there (it doesn't damage anything else in the area). My concepts are: D&D has a few of those constructs. They only work because of the big fault in D&D's design: Armor does not reduce damage. While it does speed up combat, it makes the cleric a absolute nesessity. Hero is on the exact opposite of that spectrum here: "no absolutes", "every attack must have a defense", "defenses reduce damage taken". Asuming a superheroic powerlevel, the first problem is actually getting damage through if the damage drops to 6D6 per target. Only NND comes to mind here. Without that, the attack is nearly useless with 2 though targets. And really useless with 3-4 (4D6 does an average damage of 4 Body, 14 Stun; Viper Mooks have 12 PD). After that we can look how we split it up. Secondly, is the splitt up an advantage or disadvantage? At first glance only a disadvantage (due to damage), but what is with hitting those secondary targets? Does that need a OCV vs DCV roll for every target? Another point of inquiry is: Where does this power come from? What purpose does it fullfill in it's source? If this is a power from a MMO or similar game, I would guess it is a position game and a single target power from the intent/balance. The goal is to not have adds in the Area that could soak up the damage. Or that the power is simply not useable in fights with a lot of adds (that can not be pulled effectively). If so the purpose is simply to "be different" from other single target powers. It might be a bit above the power curve. Or it might be an ability of a class that does not primarily deals singletarget damage (like SWTOR's Droid Hack ability, wich non-Combat-CC classes do get). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 Something I thought of Ultimate Split: Blast 1d6, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defense; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (12 shots; +1 1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (27 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (For All Targets within a 20m Radius around the user (Not including the user) the power must be evenly split between the targets. If two exist, 6 to each. If 4 exist, 3 to each, etc; -1/2) 18 Real Points Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 The reason I went with -1/2 is because WHERE you place the AOE often determines how many people will be in the AOE, which makes it much less of a limitation in my mind. That's a fair point. Plus presumably this isn't the character's only attack, so it's not like they're going to have to use it when it's not advantageous. its not that big a disadvantage to hit two people half as hard as one. I imagine it varies from game to game, but remember that because of the way Defenses work in Hero hitting half as hard rarely means doing half as much damage. Say you're fighting Standard Supers with defenses in the 20-25 range. An average 12d6 Blast would do 42 STUN to everyone in the AOE, roughly half of which gets through. That's enough to Stun many non-Bricks, and 2 or 3 of those will get some KOs. But a 6d6 Blast does 21 STUN on average, which means nothing gets through. Even if you're smacking down mooks with Defenses in the 10-15 range, the 12d6 blast is going to Stun and possibly one-shot everyone in the AOE, whereas the 6d6 will get 5-10 STUN through. That's not a trivial distinction. (I have occasionally thought that it might be better/more realistic to make all defenses work as a percentage ala Damage Reduction. Because Hero doesn't have enough math...) Does no damage to environment is probably a 1/4 advantage at most Yeah, the number of times when damaging the environment is really disadvantageous to the PCs is pretty rare in our games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 So what determines if something is a Target? What if a UAV was flying through the affected area, would it be one? If so, what about another inactive UAV sitting on the ground? Or the bicycle sitting next to it? See the slippery slope now? HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAppleseed098 Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 So what determines if something is a Target? What if a UAV was flying through the affected area, would it be one? If so, what about another inactive UAV sitting on the ground? Or the bicycle sitting next to it? See the slippery slope now? HM That is true. I guess that is indeed where the difficulty lies. Perhaps that can be up to the GM's discretion because this is a rather tough effect to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 6d6 is a pretty huge attack in a heroic game with like 5 PD and 3 armor for your average thug, if any armor at all. Its superheroics where you start to see that kind of attack bounce. So it would again depend on the setting, but I'd call that a feature. In a superheroic game, you'd want to make it an AVAD attack or AP at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 6d6 is a pretty huge attack in a heroic game with like 5 PD and 3 armor for your average thug, if any armor at all. The numbers change but the effect of halving stays (roughly) constant: a 12d6 attack against Heroic mooks is massively overpowered,* a 6d6 attack will STUN or maybe KO them, but a 3d6 attack will only get a couple points of STUN through. Whatever the "standard defenses" are for a campaign, the first X dice do no damage and every die after that is all damage; halving subtracts dice that do all damage while leaving dice that do no damage. It's not proportional. * If you're using a 12d6 attack against mooks in a Heroic game something's already off. Also: Massively Overpowered Mooks is my new band name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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