Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[tkdguy]

I was watching Biden campaigning in  North Carolina today. He sounded much better today. I kept thinking "Where the hell was this man last night?" There's no doubt the Joe Biden did not do well.But as the President said in his rally, "When you get knocked down, you get back up." Yes, the damage is done, but I believe it's not irreparable. There's still time to fix it, and a lot can happen between now and November, although it can swing either way.

 

Besides, who will replace Pres. Biden if he does step down? Kamala Harris doesn't have the votes to win in November, and neither does Gavin Newsom. Newsom himself said one debate does not win or lose a campaign.

 

Of course, the Democratic pundits are out in force. One podcaster asked people if they're just going to give up, or are they going to fight. Others are sending emails to spur people into action. I for one will continue campaigning.

[BoloOfEarth]

Speaking for myself, if Biden had keeled over dead in the middle of the debate, I still would vote for him over Trump.  

[tkdguy]

28 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Speaking for myself, if Biden had keeled over dead in the middle of the debate, I still would vote for him over Trump.  

 

Alot of people are saying the same thing. The challenge is bringing back the people who were turned off by Biden's performance last night.

 

 

[unclevlad]

On that subject..............from the NYT Editorial Board, no less.........

 

To Serve His Country, President Biden Should Leave the Race

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/biden-election-debate-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.oVzY.yVUWBYm1hniA&smid=url-share

[Pattern Ghost]

  

6 hours ago, MrWolf said:

/sarcasm.

 

"Biden had a cold! IMPEACH HIM IMMEDIATELY!"... hopefully this is ONLY sarcasm... and no one said that for real.

 

 

 

I have two parents a year older than Biden. That wasn't a cold, it was cognitive decline. My father is much earlier along than Biden appears to be, and my mother much further along. We also dealt with this with my wife's grandmother a little over 20 years ago. I feel bad for Biden, to be honest. He should have been able to retire gracefully, after a very productive presidency.

 

That said, he's still way more qualified than Trump.

Edited June 29 by Pattern Ghost

[Old Man]

10 hours ago, unclevlad said:

<GULP>

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/27/us/politics/biden-debate-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.NuWn.MgHtHI1CS0Kj&smid=url-share

 

 

NYT publisher Sulzberger is still holding a grudge for Biden not giving his rag an exclusive interview. It’s why the paper’s coverage and polls have been so anti-Democratic this election cycle. 

[Iuz the Evil]

It’s almost certainly too late for Joe Biden to step down in any case. There’s something like 27 states with laws that govern who electors can cast their vote for at the DNC, barring death or determination of mental incompetence, based on the results of the primaries (which death or mental incompetence declaration has not happened, obviously and most likely won’t). Then you’ve got:

 

WISCONSIN — It's already too late to remove Joe Biden from the ballot.

 

NEVADA—After tonight, the fourth Friday in June, it will be too late to remove Joe Biden.

 

GEORGIA—Only a few weeks remain before it will be too late to remove Biden from the ballot.

And so on, so he’s the guy. I don’t think the media speculation is helpful, there’s not much that can be done to change that. It just undermines him with the low information voters.
 

So I’ll be expecting to vote for him in November. I’m still not convinced he can win the thing, but my fingers are crossed. If he loses, the nation desperately needs the Democrats to keep the Senate. Preferably both that and pick up the House, but at least one of them. 
 

It’s hard to believe this is reality, but here we are. Heaven help us all.

[tkdguy]

 

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, Iuz the Evil said:

It’s almost certainly too late for Joe Biden to step down in any case. There’s something like 27 states with laws that govern who electors can cast their vote for at the DNC, barring death or determination of mental incompetence, based on the results of the primaries (which death or mental incompetence declaration has not happened, obviously and most likely won’t).

 

Biden's campaign has already announced that he will not step down. 

 

Despite the wall to wall panic coverage in the corporate media, I'm seeing some reports from actual journalists interviewing actual likely voters that the debate convinced them to vote for the guy who didn't gish gallop for the entire debate.  Could American voters actually choose truth over bluster?  It's hard to believe, I know.

[Lord Liaden]

Those of us participating in this thread tend to follow politics fairly closely. The various journalists and pundits we often turn to for insights also follow politics closely. This may put us in our own "information silo" with lots of echoes. It's entirely possible that most of the rest of America isn't as aware of this incident as we are, and if they are, that they don't take it nearly as seriously.

[Old Man]

Honestly, while the debate is a big missed opportunity, the bigger story is the recent SCOTUS decisions that:

• Legalize bribery
• Criminalize homelessness
• Prevent the executive branch from interpreting its own regulations

Just in the last week.  None of it is surprising, not from these "justices", but it's still catastrophic.

 

[unclevlad]

27 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Honestly, while the debate is a big missed opportunity, the bigger story is the recent SCOTUS decisions that:

• Legalize bribery
• Criminalize homelessness
• Prevent the executive branch from interpreting its own regulations

Just in the last week.  None of it is surprising, not from these "justices", but it's still catastrophic.

 

 

I saw those.  They were too depressing for me to post.

[Lectryk]

2 hours ago, Iuz the Evil said:

It’s almost certainly too late for Joe Biden to step down in any case. There’s something like 27 states with laws that govern who electors can cast their vote for at the DNC, barring death or determination of mental incompetence, based on the results of the primaries (which death or mental incompetence declaration has not happened, obviously and most likely won’t).

 

I'm curious about this - what happens if a party were to nominate any candidate other than the one that won the most primary votes?  There have been cases of multiple votes in the convention before the winner actually gets the nomination.  I don't believe there was any actual chance of failure in the last 60 years for the presumptive nominee in those cases, but they have happened.  Do the laws state the winner of the most primary votes?  I'm curious how they can name Biden since he's not the confirmed nominee yet.

[Lord Liaden]

57 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Honestly, while the debate is a big missed opportunity, the bigger story is the recent SCOTUS decisions that:

• Legalize bribery
• Criminalize homelessness
• Prevent the executive branch from interpreting its own regulations

Just in the last week.  None of it is surprising, not from these "justices", but it's still catastrophic.

 

 

The story isn't done, though. These will almost certainly be going back to court, with a refined argument. If the Democrats can win both the House and the Senate, they'll be in a position to draft new legislation to address the court's objections.

Edited June 29 by Lord Liaden

[Ternaugh]

1 hour ago, Lectryk said:

 

I'm curious about this - what happens if a party were to nominate any candidate other than the one that won the most primary votes?  There have been cases of multiple votes in the convention before the winner actually gets the nomination.  I don't believe there was any actual chance of failure in the last 60 years for the presumptive nominee in those cases, but they have happened.  Do the laws state the winner of the most primary votes?  I'm curious how they can name Biden since he's not the confirmed nominee yet.

 

The individual parties make their rules, but essentially, Biden won most of the delegates during the various state primaries, and the delegates are pledged to vote for him, at least for the first ballot.

[wcw43921]

The Senator Says It Better Than I Can

[Starlord]

Just for comparison purposes this is Biden campaigning yesterday.  He looks totally different - upbeat, energetic and his voice sounds strong:

 

 

Its a bit long, so you can jump to the middle if you want.

 

Just part of the normal cycle of cognitive decline in an 81 year old man...there will be good days and bad days

[Starlord]

[Old Man]

12 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 If the Democrats can win both the House and the Senate

 

Literally laughed out loud at this.  My bad, I should have included "legalized gerrymandering" in that list of SCOTUS 'achievements'.

[Lord Liaden]

4 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Literally laughed out loud at this.  My bad, I should have included "legalized gerrymandering" in that list of SCOTUS 'achievements'.

 

I will remember this for November. Might revisit it.

[tkdguy]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:20 PM, unclevlad said:

On that subject..............from the NYT Editorial Board, no less.........

 

To Serve His Country, President Biden Should Leave the Race

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/biden-election-debate-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.3E0.oVzY.yVUWBYm1hniA&smid=url-share

 

 

[Pattern Ghost]

In none of this talk about Biden's age, have I heard a single indictment of his actual performance. I'd rather have another four years of the same level of competence shown by this administration, even if they have to Weekend at Bernie's Biden to do so, than have that feckless, power-hungry lunatic Trump back in office.

[DShomshak]

Well, true. I would hope the Biden campaign would run ads highlighting everything his cabinet members have done, too: We are voting for an entire administration, see what a fine bunch of accomplished people you have and will get!

 

But I do regret that Biden did not choose to be a one-term president, because nothing matters more than keeping Trump out of the White House, and BIMO iden *not* running again would further this goal in two ways:

 

First, revenge is a super-power for Trump. Nothing seems to motivate him more strongly than revenge. It seems to be an important factor for his most fervent base, too, who make of him a kind of Zelig of revenge for whatever grievances they feel, from transphobia to the price of eggs -- "He's fighting for poeople like ME!" And revenge epics are dramatic.

 

Trump versus a new Democrat wouldn't be as exciting a story, and therefore less motivating for Republicans.

 

Second, everyone should have realized that felony convictions would not harm Trump in the polls. The man thrives on publicity that would destroy anyone else. The only way to counter that is to give the media something even shinier to chase after, that can crowd Trump off the literal or metaphorical front page for months at a time. A Democratic succession struggle could do that. A long series of debates like in 2020, pundits arguing the merits and flaws of a dozen or more candidates -- there are many ways to fill the media channels and keep the public looking about Democrats, talking about Democrats.

 

Incumbents are boring. Challengers are exciting. In 2020 Trump was the known quantity, so not as interesting. Who would the Dems pick to challenge him?

 

In 2016, Hillary was the pre-incumbent (the party effectively declared a coronation) and Trump was the challenger in a crowded field. The Republican contest was just plain more interesting to watch.

 

Now in 2024, Biden is the boring incumbent and Trump can frame himself as the challenger again. Strategically, I think it would have benefited Demos to turn him back into the incumbent, the known quality, and given people someone and something new to watch.

 

Policy doesn't bring the proles to the polls. Narrative does. Give people a narrative they like, and you can do policy once you're in office.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lord Liaden]

Everything said about the quality of the team Biden has surrounded himself with is true, and worth applauding. But to me there's a major factor that's often overlooked. Many of the people in the Biden administration were also members of the Obama administration. Obama had youth and tremendous charisma, but when it comes to actual accomplishments as POTUS, the handling of many challenges, Biden's presidency has greatly surpassed his. That tells me that the difference is coming from the top.

[Pattern Ghost]

The core problem is that the Democrats need an electable president, regardless of the truth of whatever is happening on the ground. Biden may still be capable of decision-making -- and I believe he is -- but his public speaking skills and debating skills are deteriorating. I think the party should have planned for his retirement after his first term, and started grooming and promoting his replacement. They have a sorry lack of candidates available, and I don't think any of the top three contenders (as have been put out by the media: Harris, Whitmer and Newsom) are capable of beating Trump. And this is why they're panicking.