Political Discussion Thread (With Rules)

[megaplayboy]

A large portion of the population move from state to state in the course of their lives. The idea that their package of rights and entitlements will vary from state to state is rather bizarre, as is the notion that the academic curriculum is not consistent from state to state, either.

[Mister E]

A Presidential election is supposed to be the will of the people. Thus the popular vote should be more important then anything.

The President has the mandate of the people no matter how that person became president.

[Nolgroth]

If you ask me, that's five times to many!

 

I'm not disagreeing with your premise. Let me be absolutely clear and blunt; I dreaded the idea of a Hillary Clinton presidency with the same passion that you are now outspoken against Trump. I didn't want a Trump presidency either, but I knew it was coming down to one or the other. I voted for neither and had to reconcile myself that, for me, either one of those two was a poor choice. That said, I've always thought it stupid that the fate of our nation's elected leadership is put into the hands of a few designated individuals and not the population as a whole. I mean I could be cynical and state the obvious flaw in that most people "vote their gut" rather than research the issues that they are voting on, but that view is anathema to the very idea of a democracy. So yeah, I'm all for a review of the EC process, at the very least, and abolishment if that review shows that its needed.

 

Historically: 1824, 1876, 1888, 2000, and 2016. (Source: FactCheck.org - up to 2000).  A statistical sampling of 5 is small, but it seems to come in phases. I imagine Post Civil War era (1876 and 1888) were not times that the United States felt any sort of cultural unity. Seems much the same for 2000 and 2016. What will be really telling is if this starts to happen more often. That is a sure sign that election rigging is potentially happening at the EC level. Not a comfort to those who rightly feel screwed at this election, but this has been the second time in my lifetime that this has happened. I really don't want to see a third.

[DasBroot]

I plan to urge the DNC to filibuster at every turn. After all, the GOP opposed Obama at every turn; turnaround is fair play.

 

Turnabout is fair play as long as it doesn't hurt the country. By all means filibuster every stupid or divisive thing that comes along but don't follow the path that's been taken far too frequently in recent history and reject a good idea based solely on who proposed it.

 

I hate when politicians do that - no matter their party affiliation.

[megaplayboy]

I think not much will be done about the EC unless and until the vote margin is embarrassingly large (5-10 million votes) and the pop vote winner has a clear majority of the votes cast.

[Starlord]

Turnabout is fair play as long as it doesn't hurt the country. By all means filibuster every stupid or divisive thing that comes along but don't follow the path that's been taken far too frequently in recent history and reject a good idea based solely on who proposed it.

 

I hate when politicians do that - no matter their party affiliation.

 

Also, given the uniqueness of Trump's candidacy (specifically, the appearance that he will break the system), if it becomes obvious that he is being fought on every major legislation it will likely get him easily reelected in 4 years, i.e. "Hey, I tried but the corrupt Washington system didn't let me!"

[Pattern Ghost]

[Hermit]

"But, Mr. Canadian... I have valuable work skills your nation lacks... I'll do jobs most Canadians won't and can't do!  I can be a total jerk to people ....I can do lay offs, or decline a loan... and not even apologize! I have wooorkkk skiiiills..." *Thrown south of Canadian border again*

[Old Man]

You gotta admit, the illegal immigration problem is surely solved now.  He won't even need the wall.

[Twilight]

You gotta admit, the illegal immigration problem is surely solved now.  He won't even need the wall.

Only Disney World could cause me to go to the US now and then only if that special somebody goes with me.

[wcw43921]

It feels like 2004 all over again.

 

In spite of the Bush administration sinking billions of dollars into a war that had gone seriously, if not completely the opposite of what its planners and advocates had anticipated, the voters still preferred Bush over John Kerry, who had realized the war was a mistake and promised to end it. Kerry once asked, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?”. That year, the voters didn't ask that question--they just kept the man who would send more men to die.

 

They wanted the war. They wanted to inflict violence and misery on those who, for the most part, had already suffered enough of it, and were not responsible for those who had inflicted it upon the United States. They wanted to feel like they were winning.

 

When Trump and his followers use the slogan "Make America Great Again," I think they refer to World War II and the period that followed as the last time America was "Great." America had won the war (as if the British and the Russians had nothing to do with it) and stood undisputed as the most powerful nation on Earth. We were everyone's heroes, and if anyone were to dare to suggest that there was anything wrong with our society and our way of life, they were dirty Communist traitors who didn't appreciate what we had here, and didn't belong here in the first place.

 

Or something like that.

 

But everything was not well with our society and our way of life. There were many who did not share in the prosperity and equality enjoyed by the majority--and when they tried to stand up for their rights, when they demanded to be treated with the same dignity and respect as the entitled majority, they were derided and disparaged, if not outright attacked, by members of the majority who feared, more than anything else, that what they were saying was true, and that would mean that everything they believed was a fraud.

 

Or worse--they knew it was true and liked it that way.

 

The people who voted for Bush in 2004 were quite like those who opposed the civil rights and equality movements of the Fifties and Sixties--people who were afraid that the war in Iraq was a mistake, and didn't want to believe it, or knew it was a mistake but didn't want to get out because it would mean losing face, or genuinely hated the inhabitants of the region, or some other reason. And they outnumbered the voters who wanted to set things right before any other soldiers or anyone else died.

 

Now here we are in 2016, and fears and hatreds that should not exist in a nation that professes to protect and defend the inalienable rights of human beings were publicized and exploited in a way not seen since the civil rights struggle. And voters who were afraid that people of a darker skin color than they were would take their jobs, or injure them, or whatever else they were afraid of, listened to the people who genuinely thrived and trafficked in such hatreds and voted accordingly.

 

And again--here we are.

 

I don't know what will happen in the next two to four years. There were a couple of bright spots in last night's results--Joe Arpaio was voted out as sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, so that state's residents won't have to suffer his infringements upon their rights anymore. And Tammy Duckworth, who understands service and sacrifice in a way the the President-Elect never will, was elected to the US Senate from Illinois--the same position that gave Obama his start in national politics back in 2004. I have to hope that things will turn out for the better--it's not like I can afford to move to Canada, and even if I did, that's not a solution. If everyone who was dissatisfied with this election's results were to leave, then only the bigots and the hatemongers would remain. Is that what we want for this country?

 

But apart from those, it's hard to see anything positive come out of this election. Like I said--it feels like 2004 all over again.

[megaplayboy]

 

 

 

It feels like 2004 all over again.

 

 

 

In spite of the Bush administration sinking billions of dollars into a war that had gone seriously, if not completely the opposite of what its planners and advocates had anticipated, the voters still preferred Bush over John Kerry, who had realized the war was a mistake and promised to end it. Kerry once asked, “How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?”. That year, the voters didn't ask that question--they just kept the man who would send more men to die.

 

 

 

They wanted the war. They wanted to inflict violence and misery on those who, for the most part, had already suffered enough of it, and were not responsible for those who had inflicted it upon the United States. They wanted to feel like they were winning.

 

 

 

When Trump and his followers use the slogan "Make America Great Again," I think they refer to World War II and the period that followed as the last time America was "Great." America had won the war (as if the British and the Russians had nothing to do with it) and stood undisputed as the most powerful nation on Earth. We were everyone's heroes, and if anyone were to dare to suggest that there was anything wrong with our society and our way of life, they were dirty Communist traitors who didn't appreciate what we had here, and didn't belong here in the first place.

 

 

 

Or something like that.

 

 

 

But everything was not well with our society and our way of life. There were many who did not share in the prosperity and equality enjoyed by the majority--and when they tried to stand up for their rights, when they demanded to be treated with the same dignity and respect as the entitled majority, they were derided and disparaged, if not outright attacked, by members of the majority who feared, more than anything else, that what they were saying was true, and that would mean that everything they believed was a fraud.

 

 

 

Or worse--they knew it was true and liked it that way.

 

 

 

The people who voted for Bush in 2004 were quite like those who opposed the civil rights and equality movements of the Fifties and Sixties--people who were afraid that the war in Iraq was a mistake, and didn't want to believe it, or knew it was a mistake but didn't want to get out because it would mean losing face, or genuinely hated the inhabitants of the region, or some other reason. And they outnumbered the voters who wanted to set things right before any other soldiers or anyone else died.

 

 

 

Now here we are in 2016, and fears and hatreds that should not exist in a nation that professes to protect and defend the inalienable rights of human beings were publicized and exploited in a way not seen since the civil rights struggle. And voters who were afraid that people of a darker skin color than they were would take their jobs, or injure them, or whatever else they were afraid of, listened to the people who genuinely thrived and trafficked in such hatreds and voted accordingly.

 

 

 

And again--here we are.

 

 

 

I don't know what will happen in the next two to four years. There were a couple of bright spots in last night's results--Joe Arpaio was voted out as sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, so that state's residents won't have to suffer his infringements upon their rights anymore. And Tammy Duckworth, who understands service and sacrifice in a way the the President-Elect never will, was elected to the US Senate from Illinois--the same position that gave Obama his start in national politics back in 2004. I have to hope that things will turn out for the better--it's not like I can afford to move to Canada, and even if I did, that's not a solution. If everyone who was dissatisfied with this election's results were to leave, then only the bigots and the hatemongers would remain. Is that what we want for this country?

 

 

 

But apart from those, it's hard to see anything positive come out of this election. Like I said--it feels like 2004 all over again.

Well, 2004 was followed by 2006, and then 2008. So there will be better days ahead (not without a LOT of work though!)

[Cassandra]

It was an historic night.  We just elected the oldest President in American history.  And we'll have the second foreign born First Lady in 190 years.  And the first who never held political office or military experience.

 

And it does give credence to the Lex Luthor Presidency.

[Old Man]

But apart from those, it's hard to see anything positive come out of this election.

Pot is legal in more states. Coincidence?

[Starlord]

[Pariah]

See, I've been hoping they'd make the electorial college proportional for years.... have it break as close as possible to match. 

 

If some state is worth 20 mighty electoral votes, but it's nearly even... I'd much prefer it break down to 10/9/1 (Some third party perhaps) than winner take all.

 

If the Electoral College becomes proportional, then it's just a middleman.  Why have it at all? 

[Twilight]

If the Electoral College becomes proportional, then it's just a middleman.  Why have it at all? 

Logically it would only be used in the case of an election that was tied, thus ensuring that it'd only be used when it's actually needed.  As it stands now, there's too much chance of it actually subverting the will of the people as it did in this election.

[Pariah]

The people who voted for Bush in 2004 were quite like those who opposed the civil rights and equality movements of the Fifties and Sixties--people who were afraid that the war in Iraq was a mistake, and didn't want to believe it, or knew it was a mistake but didn't want to get out because it would mean losing face, or genuinely hated the inhabitants of the region, or some other reason. And they outnumbered the voters who wanted to set things right before any other soldiers or anyone else died.

 

This isn't true. At least, it wasn't true for me. The main reason I voted for Bush was that there was no reason to vote for John Kerry.  His entire platform (if that's even the right word) was "Elect me because I'm not George W. Bush". And it failed--much like Hillary Clinton's non-platform of "Elect me because I'm not Donald Trump" failed last night.  (Admittedly, Hillary makes the stronger case.)

 

Blaming fear and hatred for Kerry's loss in 2004 is a nice excuse a decade after the fact, but it's not true.  I didn't vote for Bush out of fear, or out of hatred of Middle Easterners. I voted for Bush because I didn't see Kerry as a viable option.

[Nolgroth]

Well, 2004 was followed by 2006, and then 2008. So there will be better days ahead (not without a LOT of work though!)

 

That was kind of the thrust of Hillary Clinton's concession speech. It was a lot less about conceding (beyond the obligatory "let's work together with the new president" message) and more about motivating the Democratic Party base to keep fighting the good fight. I can respect that.

[Nolgroth]

This isn't true. At least, it wasn't true for me. The main reason I voted for Bush was that there was no reason to vote for John Kerry.  His entire platform (if that's even the right word) was "Elect me because I'm not George W. Bush". And it failed--much like Hillary Clinton's non-platform of "Elect me because I'm not Donald Trump" failed last night.  (Admittedly, Hillary makes the stronger case.)

 

Blaming fear and hatred for Kerry's loss in 2004 is a nice excuse a decade after the fact, but it's not true.  I didn't vote for Bush out of fear, or out of hatred of Middle Easterners. I voted for Bush because I didn't see Kerry as a viable option.

 

Personally, I am quite tired of being equated with being a racist by virtue of being a white Conservative. I also realize that this election is very painful for our friends, yes friends, on the Left side of the aisle. All of the polls strongly indicated that Hillary Clinton would win and there was a palpable expectation of such. I even felt that was going to be the case. It was quite shocking when the exact opposite of my previous prediction* came true. If it were shocking to me, I can only imagine how utterly devastating it was for those that just "knew" that their chosen candidate was going to be president. Expressing that pain and concern is only natural. I think a little compassion and commiseration is not beyond my ability. Besides, I hate Trump almost as much as Clinton. In a bar graph, you would really have to zoom in very close to see the difference. I didn't vote for him and, being in California, it wouldn't matter if I did. California is a foregone conclusion for the Democrat side.

 

The only "win" I see (for me) is that Hillary Clinton will not get to appoint pro-Gun Control justice(s) to the Supreme Court. That was my biggest concern. Now I have a lot more concerns aside from that but I am willing to give it a chance to see how Trump is going to run the country. Who knows, he might surprise me. 

 

 

* I predicted that Hillary Clinton would take the Electoral, while Trump would take the Popular. 

[Old Man]

[Balabanto]

Only Disney World could cause me to go to the US now and then only if that special somebody goes with me.

Minnie Mouse is still going through divorce proceedings. Because, you know, f**king Goofy.

[Balabanto]

Personally, I am quite tired of being equated with being a racist by virtue of being a white Conservative. I also realize that this election is very painful for our friends, yes friends, on the Left side of the aisle. All of the polls strongly indicated that Hillary Clinton would win and there was a palpable expectation of such. I even felt that was going to be the case. It was quite shocking when the exact opposite of my previous prediction* came true. If it were shocking to me, I can only imagine how utterly devastating it was for those that just "knew" that their chosen candidate was going to be president. Expressing that pain and concern is only natural. I think a little compassion and commiseration is not beyond my ability. Besides, I hate Trump almost as much as Clinton. In a bar graph, you would really have to zoom in very close to see the difference. I didn't vote for him and, being in California, it wouldn't matter if I did. California is a foregone conclusion for the Democrat side.

 

The only "win" I see (for me) is that Hillary Clinton will not get to appoint pro-Gun Control justice(s) to the Supreme Court. That was my biggest concern. Now I have a lot more concerns aside from that but I am willing to give it a chance to see how Trump is going to run the country. Who knows, he might surprise me. 

 

 

* I predicted that Hillary Clinton would take the Electoral, while Trump would take the Popular. 

My problem is VERY simple. Nuclear Launch Codes should not need Child Safety Locks.

[Heroic Halfwit]

Trump has cratered 95% of the businesses he has been involved in. He has had 6 bankruptcies in the same business venture, then he finally crashed it and soaked his investors for millions. I can do without his presidency with a track record like that.

CES  

Actually this is just false.  He never bankrupted any business 6 times.  He has had, according to some reports, been involved in 6 different Chapter 11 Reorganizations.  That said, a Chapter 11 reorganization is a rather common event for large cap enterprises, particularly those that have extensive union contracts, for example Delta Airlines and General Motors.  

 

I get you don't like the guy, but this statement is simply false.  Most of the bankruptcies were casinos during the 1990's when the entire Gaming Industry took a bath.  The same thing happened to television antenna installers.

[Nolgroth]

My problem is VERY simple. Nuclear Launch Codes should not need Child Safety Locks.

 

Clever but hyperbolic.