Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I'm afraid I always have trouble swallowing that assertion. Donald Trump was not a professional politician, true. He just associated with them, endorsed them, contributed to their campaigns, for many years. Calling him an "outsider," as many people have, is downplaying his history in the corridors of power. Similarly, he has not been part of the political class before now, but he is definitely what passes for "aristocracy" in the United States. He was born into great wealth, enough to insulate him from the numerous financial gambles he lost. How he convinced the American working class he understood them baffles me. I'm afraid I have trouble swallowing your assertions. Though I think part of it is a problem of definition. Wealth alone does not make one an aristocrat. Just ask any wealthy Jew in Europe before say the 20th century. He is not one of these multimillionaire "life long public servants" like Bill and Hillary Clinton who can attribute the overwhelming majority of their wealth to "public service." I never called him an "outsider" and regardless of what you think his contributions, endorsements, etc. may have granted him in the past, I think it unreasonable to assume that any such activities would completely smooth over the split between Trump and say, Speaker Ryan and other Republicans who actively campaigned against him and in some case for former Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton. It is highly unlikely that a President Trump will have the same ease of governance with his party enjoying a majority in both Houses of Congress as say a Barrack Obama. If you view the political world as a binary set of political insiders and everyone else being an outsider, it would be hard to call Trump an insider. I suspect working class america voted for Trump because he actively sought their vote and gave a voice to their anger and dissatisfaction with a number of policies which have directly and negatively impacted them, while former Secretary Clinton promised more of the same. It's hard to win West Virginia when you say you're going to drive the coal industry out of business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 The idea was that America did not follow Britain in screwing up this year. However it did. What do you mean? Are you asserting that the Brexit vote was an apocalyptic catastrophe and so too is the election of Donald Trump? or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkness Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I think screwing up has many degrees before apocalyptic tragedy. That still doesn't make it the best course. Grailknight 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 As Franklin Roosevelt learned, a judge might not vote the way you think or hope he will. I learned that already with Roberts. Like I said, I'm not really happy with the idea of heavy tilted court either way. But, the left do a lot more things that concern me than the reverse. Heroic Halfwit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I agree with the screwing up by degrees, but I'm not terribly familiar with British politics and society except as it relates to the financial markets (my job) so financial regs, exiting the EU, certain labor and taxes policies, threats by HSBC to relocate to Hong Kong, etc. If the British screwing up doesn't refer to Brexit, I honestly have no idea to what it might refer. As for American politics, I suspect the majority of America believes that none of the candidates represented the "best course" but most likely slightly lesser degrees "screwing up." Personally, I preferred Johnson, Walker, even Jeb Bush more than Trump (though I couldn't vote for Jeb Bush because of my rabid hatred of political dynasties.) I really didn't know much about Hillary Clinton's running mate, can't even remember his name "Kane" I think. I was also convinced from some of former Secretary Clinton's own statements about relying on former Secretary Powell's advice to use a private server to circumvent the Federal Records Act that she was guilty of violating that act and consequently, by statute, disqualified from ever serving as an officer of the United States including president. Don't like the idea of electing someone to office and then having their unelected running mate serve out the term. Reminds me of a story about a term limited governor in Alabama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Also in the news: Canadian immigration website crashes. *Imagining funny dream-like scenario taking place two years from now through the eyes of massive Canadian news coverage of the horrible conditions in all the American refugee camps all along the Great Lakes amidst the construction of the new wall being built* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 So now that the election has been definitively settled, at what point do we go back to having open, unmoderated conversations about the state of politics in our country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I agree with the screwing up by degrees, but I'm not terribly familiar with British politics and society except as it relates to the financial markets (my job) so financial regs, exiting the EU, certain labor and taxes policies, threats by HSBC to relocate to Hong Kong, etc. If the British screwing up doesn't refer to Brexit, I honestly have no idea to what it might refer. I reckon Tribble was indeed talking about Brexit. People are saying that the apocalypse did not descend. If you are inside just now then I think it is simply waiting for the other foot to fall. We are not outside the EU yet. There is uncertainty. The markets are short-term things and right now everything is relatively stable but it is all a bit fragile - every statement has the potential to further devalue sterling and hit the markets. I will also be interested to see how businesses make their decisions when we have actually left or when the Government actually tells us all what deal it thinks it can get with the EU when we leave and whether that is realistic. Nissan have obviously gotten a special deal to continue making cars in the UK for the short to medium term - a lot of other businesses will be looking for a "Nissan deal" in the near future. I think the worst is yet to come as far as Brexit goes. I wish you all the best of luck - I listened to the acceptance speech and nearly fell asleep - not going to accept second best in America any more, wonderful relationships with everyone, going to build lots of stuff with American labour and "we owe a debt of gratitude to Secretary Clinton for her service" is all I took from it...pretty thin to my view. I am waiting to see how it turns out but he does not fill me with the kind of confidence that almost half of voting US citizens seem to have. Vague platitudes Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Heh, the best thing about his speech to me was his young son having to stand next to him the whole time looking SOOOO BORED it was funny. Poor little guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Heh, the best thing about his speech to me was his young son having to stand next to him the whole time looking SOOOO BORED it was funny. Poor little guy. Give the kid a break it was like 3 o'clock in the morning on a school night no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Oh, I'm not ragging on the kid, just the situation he's been put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Ok, seriously...anti-establishment and changing the broken system seems to be the order of the day. Change is nice, if it actually makes things better. I can't imagine Trump improving anything. There aren't words to describe the embarrassment, shame, anger, and disappointment I feel. We've put a racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, thin-skinned, short-tempered, crass, boorish sexual assailant in the White House. I can't. I just can't even. I'm ashamed to be American. I'm ashamed to be white. I'm ashamed to be male. And the damage to the Supreme Court could be catastrophic if more anti-women bible-thumpers get on the bench. If I could afford it, I'd be on my way to Canada or Denmark or Australia or something. aylwin13, Iuz the Evil and Twilight 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkness Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/queen-offers-to-restore-british-rule-over-united-states Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I wonder if the dems were just overconfident. All the outlets were calling an easy win for Clinton, so people leaning toward her figured they could stay home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 If they did they have learned the hard way that there is truth in the adage that "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Always vote. Even if you're in California. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Change is nice, if it actually makes things better. I can't imagine Trump improving anything. There aren't words to describe the embarrassment, shame, anger, and disappointment I feel. We've put a racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, thin-skinned, short-tempered, crass, boorish sexual assailant in the White House. I can't. I just can't even. I'm ashamed to be American. I'm ashamed to be white. I'm ashamed to be male. And the damage to the Supreme Court could be catastrophic if more anti-women bible-thumpers get on the bench. If I could afford it, I'd be on my way to Canada or Denmark or Australia or something. Who are the anti-women bible-thumpers on the bench? Seriously, I've not met one and... I'm a lawyer. And on the Supreme Court I would be shocked if you could reasonably call any of the current Justices or even Antonin Scalia, God rest his soul, anti-woman or a bible-thumper. Honestly, that's the first time I've ever heard anyone imply that Donald J. Trump was a Bible-thumper. Made me giggle. Thank you. I could care less about a politician's personal life and personal views but that would take effort. I'm interested in the policies they enact. If Donald Trump makes it so that illegal immigrants from South and Central America are treated equally with illegal immigrants from other parts of the world I'm in favor of it. Please explain to me how it is not racist, xenophobic, or w/e to give one set of illegal immigrants preferable treatment over a different set? If you try to emigrate to Canada, Australia or Denmark you will find that they all have far more restrictive immigration policies than the United States. I do not think you should be ashamed to be white or male. You are white and male as a consequence of birth a circumstance over which you had absolutely no influence. Nor should you feel any moral responsibility, i.e. shame, for the actions of other persons just because they share that consequence of birth. Justice Ginsburg has been dying for decades. Not to worry. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 I'm also feeling a little disgusted. Faced with a choice between the two least-liked, least trusted, and arguably least qualified candidates in my lifetime, we as a nation didn't have the spine to get even one electoral vote to someone else. We fell for the whole Two-Party thing yet again--hook, line, and sinker. We got what we deserved, I suppose. It reminds me of the old saying: If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. So I'll be the first to say it: Johnson-Weld in 2020! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 My daughter (age 25) said a fair number of her friends (all Bernie supporters) were vocally anti-Trump but voted for third-party candidates as protest votes. She was quite upset, basically saying, "They voted like kids having a hissy-fit, counting on everybody else to do the responsible thing and vote for Hillary to keep Trump from winning." IMO, Trump's victory and Brexit pretty much give the lesson that you don't need to tell the truth or have a reasonable post-win plan. All you need is bombast and appeal to people's baser instincts. Shout down your opponent, make a bunch of BS claims, and you're good to go. It'll be interesting (in the same manner as seeing a multi-car accident happen right in front of you) to see how the next four years play out. I expect Trump's presidency to remind me a lot of Zaphod Beeblebrox - the job of the president being to distract attention from the people who really have the power. Y'know, the oh-so-hated political elite and ruling aristocracy, who will still be doing everything behind the scenes. Or maybe they're people beholden to folks with names like Vladimir. I guess that would be people's desired change from the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Ugh. Embarrassing as a nation. We elected, nationalist race baiting, sexist, wealth-glorifying, divisive leadership to run the country with the support of all three branches of government... and some, I assume, are good people? God help us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 As to the "Two-Party thing," it's not so much a question of falling for it, as it is being resigned to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 delete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 So I'll be the first to say it: Johnson-Weld in 2020! I am with you all the way up until this exact point. I like Gov. Johnson. I like his moderate Libertarian stance and not throwing everything away as some hardliners want. BUT, he was a poor speaker and made some unfortunate mistakes. Of course the media ran with the gaffs and not the positions, but such is to be expected. I am hoping that we can get a bit of a stronger candidate in the running next time. I think Gov. Johnson did a fair and admirable job this time around in helping get access and should be rewarded for that. But it is time to move on. Two election cycles with him is enough. Soar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 Change is nice, if it actually makes things better. I can't imagine Trump improving anything. There aren't words to describe the embarrassment, shame, anger, and disappointment I feel. We've put a racist, sexist, homophobic, ignorant, thin-skinned, short-tempered, crass, boorish sexual assailant in the White House. I can't. I just can't even. I'm ashamed to be American. I'm ashamed to be white. I'm ashamed to be male. And the damage to the Supreme Court could be catastrophic if more anti-women bible-thumpers get on the bench. If I could afford it, I'd be on my way to Canada or Denmark or Australia or something. ^^ This ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heroic Halfwit Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 For those who lament the Two-Party System, you should rejoice in a Trump election, in part at least. Trump was able to win election in defiance of all conventional wisdom with less money spent than any winning candidate since I've been alive. This is great for those who hold out for Libertarians, Greens, Constitutionalists, and other 3rd parties. It shows, conclusively, that it can be done. You just need the right candidate and the right time and an exceedingly active social media account. I'm serious. The thing that gives me most hope about this election is the opportunity for the Internet to actually level the playing field against big donor interests. On the Internet, you can put forth detailed, and therefore complicated and long, proposals. People could, if they chose, decide on a candidate on the basis of actual policies rather than the sound bites. I mean honestly what reasonable person thinks 90 seconds is a reasonable amount of time to layout a plan for resolving any significant national issue? I hate what comes out of Donald Trump's mouth. I think his personal life is a mess, but his actions are actually pretty good. He's turned around a lot of bankrupt business and turned them into profitable job creating tax paying enterprises. He has always paid for talent and provided both superior pay and benefits. He even has a solid history of promoting women and minorities in his various business concerns. What he'll do as President, we'll have to see, but the old saw I live by is if you want to predict what people will do, look at what they've done; not what they've said. In any event, it's a blow against the political aristocracy and the political dynasties and that, in and of itself, is a good thing. A Trump presidency might still be a apocalyptic disaster or he might be a modern day Cincinnatus who restores the Republic. Time will tell. Nolgroth and Lord Mhoram 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted November 9, 2016 Report Share Posted November 9, 2016 For those who lament the Two-Party System, you should rejoice in a Trump election, in part at least. Trump was able to win election in defiance of all conventional wisdom with less money spent than any winning candidate since I've been alive. This is great for those who hold out for Libertarians, Greens, Constitutionalists, and other 3rd parties. It shows, conclusively, that it can be done. You just need the right candidate and the right time and an exceedingly active social media account. I'm serious. The thing that gives me most hope about this election is the opportunity for the Internet to actually level the playing field against big donor interests. On the Internet, you can put forth detailed, and therefore complicated and long, proposals. People could, if they chose, decide on a candidate on the basis of actual policies rather than the sound bites. I mean honestly what reasonable person thinks 90 seconds is a reasonable amount of time to layout a plan for resolving any significant national issue? I hate what comes out of Donald Trump's mouth. I think his personal life is a mess, but his actions are actually pretty good. He's turned around a lot of bankrupt business and turned them into profitable job creating tax paying enterprises. He has always paid for talent and provided both superior pay and benefits. He even has a solid history of promoting women and minorities in his various business concerns. What he'll do as President, we'll have to see, but the old saw I live by is if you want to predict what people will do, look at what they've done; not what they've said. In any event, it's a blow against the political aristocracy and the political dynasties and that, in and of itself, is a good thing. A Trump presidency might still be a apocalyptic disaster or he might be a modern day Cincinnatus who restores the Republic. Time will tell. Trump has cratered 95% of the businesses he has been involved in. He has had 6 bankruptcies in the same business venture, then he finally crashed it and soaked his investors for millions. I can do without his presidency with a track record like that. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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