Discussion of Hero System's "Health" on rpg.net

[Vondy]

 

I do as well, although the art I can't cover.  What could be done is a kickstarter to pay for the costs along those lines.  I do really want to move forward on Astro City Hero, but that would require significant assistance from Hero Games and someone handling stuff like the publicity and crowdfunding.

 

Depends on the print lot, but if you go Print on Demand, which is a better model anyway, it costs you... zero.  They just take a large chunk of the cover price.  The more you print, the less they charge.

 

 

One thought I had was short (say 24-36 page) Champions Universe "expansions." 

 

These could introduce a villain group / organization with an accompanying adventure.

 

Or, if Jason and Steve were down with it, expand on an existing villain, etc.

 

If the theme / presentation is consistent and tight enough, you could compile them into a print book when you had 5-6 finished.

 

One way to do that would be to have excerpts from team / agency data-files that make it look like "field reports."

 

Another would be to have a "default hero team" (champions or original or whatever) in the art, etc.

 

GMs could use the prefab characters or original ones made by the players.

 

At least, that was my idea. Thoughts?

[Roter Baron]

Show me where anyone in this thread "demanded" you do or don't do anything? All that has been done has been to point out that some terms being used are more offensive than some people seem to think they are and that maybe we shouldn't use them anymore.

 

...which is exactly what I've been saying.

 

Never said it is; pointing out dickish behavior is not a call for criminalizing said behavior. Your persecution complex is showing.

 

Please refrain from psychoanalyzing me. You are not up to the task.

But that is basically what I (and a couple of others here) mean:

Don't agree with some group or individual who might or might not find something offensive, you are this-phobic or have a whatever-complex or in short: You are irrational, ill-informed, less enlightened.

Well, thank you, sir!

 

But it is good to see that my "complex-ridden" self at least got it right that I am not in danger of being persecuted by  law. But guess what: I never considered myself guilty of saying anything dickish or offensive (at least not in the context of this discussion), so I wasn't refering to me anyhow.

 

BTW: I am out of this part of the conversation. No point in going on.

[Roter Baron]

Expansions are IMHO only useful if the villain or the vilain group that is described in fuller detail is also presentet with a ready-to-play adventure that makes some use of the material presented - not some bank robery scenario that anyone (even me) can crank out in two-seconds (that is including a battle-map - thus I need an extra-second).

 

But as a whole that might be a worthwhile idea. HERO needs readily availbale, playable stuff!

[Ninja-Bear]

Just a thought. What about making a fantasy book rules and all with the western shores background?

[Joe Walsh]

Fair point. But as we've discussed, when a game goes out of print or stops being supported by new publications, over time that does have an effect on how many people play it.

 

Probably the natural outflow of people moving on to other games, plus drastically reduced inflow to replace them...eventually resulting in a further downward drift from the network effect ("I don't know anyone who plays X").

 

I guess that means it's a good thing Champions Complete exists, or the community would be even smaller.

 

(Although I look over at the OD&D/AD&D board and wonder how much of a difference having a current version of Hero System available has made, really. Then again, Hasbro does offer all editions of D&D as PDFs.)

[Roter Baron]

Just a thought. What about making a fantasy book rules and all with the western shores background?

 

I would soooo buy it! One of my favourite settings. nd i could dust off DRAK THE BARBARIAN. What an ass-kicker he was!

[sureshot73]

It's not only simply a matter of HG getting more money. Even if they won the lottery tommorow. A decent amount of gamers are not interested in a rules heavy and complex system like the Hero System. So if all your going to do is a rehash with better production values it's throwing money away. You might as well burn money. One thing those who like the system ignore is that they are easier less complex and rules light systems on the market. While not as complete like the HS, some on the hobby are willing to overlook that. You want no changes yet at the same time want it to be more popular. If your also not offering anything new why would people reinvest again. 

[Roter Baron]

YEAH! Let's burn money!

 

No seriously: Yes, you are right and other people (me amongst them) have pointed out before that HERO is qute rules-heavy. You can skip a rule here or there, leave out a bunch of options but in the end it IS not a rules-light system. Well, guess we can't chnage that.

 

So, there are two options:

1.) Offering something new in the form of new adventures, cool settings etc that has an apeal to fandom outside the hard-core herophiles here on the board that make people say: "Never thought much of HERO, but that setting is really nice. I guess I try it out - or I use another system with this setting that is more to my liking but I sure as heaven and hell buy the book!"

2.) Publish a different set of rules for settings & adventures that rules light and double stat it with HERO or oeffer two versions. that si for instance what Cakebread & Walton does - rather heavy on the rules with Renaissnace, extremely rules-light with OneDice.

[ghost-angel]

Hero isn't more complex. That's a total myth.

 

What Hero is is more Front Loaded. It has a longer, more in depth, set up than other systems when taken to its generic bones.

 

There is a way to reduce the upfront work of getting a camapign ready, though, and it's rarely been done, and even when it is done, it only goes half way with it.

 

PS238, Monster Hunter International, and Narosia have all give it a good solid go of packaging the rules with a campaign and presenting only the relevant bits. But it still isn't as grab and go as Fate System book might be. It doesn't require a different set of rules for each Campaign World to be presented, but it does require choices be pre-made when including them in a Campaign World, and then leaving out aspects that just do not apply. I think it can be done, and done well, I think the current Hero User Base will mostly balk at the idea though. But then, the current user base for the system spent the last decade proving that if it wasn't branded "Champions" it was going to sell for crap anyway...

[phoenix240]

There are plenty of "simpler" systems in the market that aren't flying off the shelves either and complex systems that sell quite well (as measured in current terms). As was mentioned before the 800 pd gorilla in the gaming arena isn't "rules lite" by any stretch. Personally I don't think skinning Hero, stuffing a :"rules light" system into the pelt and trying to sell it is as Hero System, going to be a formula for success. 

 

"rules lite" isn't a license to print money. There has to be some draw, some reason new people join up possibly abandoning their previous rules. If you want "rules lite" systems there are plenty out there that are well established, supported and solid for just about any genre you might want including generic. Making Hero a Fate-alike, for instance isn't going to make it successful unless there's something it does notably than Fate. For that matter, some don't consider Fate rules lite.  Rules Light is subjective anyway, practically to the point of "I know it when I see it". For it means systems like Wu Shu, for others its essentially code for highly narrative driven rules or so called "Story games". I simply don't think there's any way to change Hero System enough to appeal to the bulk of say, TRO that would leave it recognizable in anything but name. 

 

And it still might bomb  because there are other options still and frankly, because the Hero System name carries such baggage.And then you may have alienated some of your older fans (both old guard and any new that was drawn to the game and they do exist). And its hard to un ring the bell.  I do think HS could be repackaged and presented in new ways while keeping the spirit and essence the drew many of us too it. 

 

One that has turned me and a few friends a little off from the Hero Community in the last few years is a seeming pull away from flexibility and options and turn towards One True Way and making sure everyone else playing uses or that heretical preferences aren't officially mentioned. Its probably just a perception but its there. 

[phoenix240]

Hero isn't more complex. That's a total myth.

 

What Hero is is more Front Loaded. It has a longer, more in depth, set up than other systems when taken to its generic bones.

 

There is a way to reduce the upfront work of getting a camapign ready, though, and it's rarely been done, and even when it is done, it only goes half way with it.

 

PS238, Monster Hunter International, and Narosia have all give it a good solid go of packaging the rules with a campaign and presenting only the relevant bits. But it still isn't as grab and go as Fate System book might be. It doesn't require a different set of rules for each Campaign World to be presented, but it does require choices be pre-made when including them in a Campaign World, and then leaving out aspects that just do not apply. I think it can be done, and done well, I think the current Hero User Base will mostly balk at the idea though. But then, the current user base for the system spent the last decade proving that if it wasn't branded "Champions" it was going to sell for crap anyway...

 

I don't know if I qualify as one of the old guard but I wouldn't have problem with setting books with tight definition. I thought there already where. There's plenty of themed Lego sets even pre built Lego art. I'd like to keep the big bucket available too. 

[Doc Democracy]

I do think that the biggest thing HERO can do is facilitate the GM. Ghost Angel is right, HERO is not rules heavy. There is quite a simple system hiding under all the options. A setting that makes all the choices, advises the GM on how to pitch character building with, for a fantasy setting, a pre-baked magic system and a slew of package deals for characters would get over the biggest hump.

 

For experienced HERO folk the accompanying pdf would be explicit about the design choices and settings and some obvious alterations that could be made.

 

I bet most HERO folk would tweak nothing about the campaign and simply design their PCs from scratch.

[Vondy]

It's not only simply a matter of HG getting more money. Even if they won the lottery tommorow. A decent amount of gamers are not interested in a rules heavy and complex system like the Hero System. So if all your going to do is a rehash with better production values it's throwing money away. You might as well burn money. One thing those who like the system ignore is that they are easier less complex and rules light systems on the market. While not as complete like the HS, some on the hobby are willing to overlook that. You want no changes yet at the same time want it to be more popular. If your also not offering anything new why would people reinvest again.

Well, from my perspective, aside from the villian and org books, hero has focused on buildability rather than playability. The materials released are 80% about design time (tool kitting) rather than run time. While not "new," my idea is basically to present ready to use run time materials. Adventures may be loss leaders (I would aim for break even leaders), but they do help make a very front loaded system come to life. It also serves as an implicit example for new GMs. It can also showcase a "less crunchy" design aesthetic. That's not different system-wise, but it is different line-wise.

[Vondy]

Expansions are IMHO only useful if the villain or the vilain group that is described in fuller detail is also presentet with a ready-to-play adventure that makes some use of the material presented - not some bank robery scenario that anyone (even me) can crank out in two-seconds (that is including a battle-map - thus I need an extra-second).

 

But as a whole that might be a worthwhile idea. HERO needs readily availbale, playable stuff!

The basic idea was Villians+Adventure.

[Vondy]

There are plenty of "simpler" systems in the market that aren't flying off the shelves either and complex systems that sell quite well (as measured in current terms). As was mentioned before the 800 pd gorilla in the gaming arena isn't "rules lite" by any stretch. Personally I don't think skinning Hero, stuffing a :"rules light" system into the pelt and trying to sell it is as Hero System, going to be a formula for success.

 

"rules lite" isn't a license to print money. There has to be some draw, some reason new people join up possibly abandoning their previous rules. If you want "rules lite" systems there are plenty out there that are well established, supported and solid for just about any genre you might want including generic. Making Hero a Fate-alike, for instance isn't going to make it successful unless there's something it does notably than Fate. For that matter, some don't consider Fate rules lite. Rules Light is subjective anyway, practically to the point of "I know it when I see it". For it means systems like Wu Shu, for others its essentially code for highly narrative driven rules or so called "Story games". I simply don't think there's any way to change Hero System enough to appeal to the bulk of say, TRO that would leave it recognizable in anything but name.

 

And it still might bomb because there are other options still and frankly, because the Hero System name carries such baggage.And then you may have alienated some of your older fans (both old guard and any new that was drawn to the game and they do exist). And its hard to un ring the bell. I do think HS could be repackaged and presented in new ways while keeping the spirit and essence the drew many of us too it.

 

One that has turned me and a few friends a little off from the Hero Community in the last few years is a seeming pull away from flexibility and options and turn towards One True Way and making sure everyone else playing uses or that heretical preferences aren't officially mentioned. Its probably just a perception but its there.

It's not just you, but I think part of that is that most of the people who stuck around adopted 6e and the 6e zeitgeist. 6e represents a very specific set of thinking about how to use Hero. It's not wrong, but it is at odds with how many of us use the system. The 5e era was more varied in part because the dynamic tension of different approaches was unresolved. You had people with more varied styles and a more freewheeling gaming culture. 6e is mechanically compatible with older editions, but it's not necessarily stylistically and philosophically compatible.

 

Edit: it could also just be that 4e and 5e folk don't put their ideas up because they are playing "older editions." There tends to be an implicit sneer in the gaming world (not necessarily hero) for people who don't adopt the latest edition of a game.

[Roter Baron]

The only reason why my group hasn't adopted 6th edition is :

1) How to get the two basic books? (Well, I have them but paid dearly for them)

2) Some stuff is now different but only marginally so - meaning that you think you know how stuff works but there is some knack that is different. This causes confusion, more ven than learning a rule just from scratch.

3) "Oh great, after ONE bloated rules book (5th edition in comparison to 4th edeition) now there TWO of them !"

4) Hero Designer is not user friendly. But the old one you could still buy as a CD. And yes, I gave my CD to my friends so that they could make their own characters. Is that legal. Guess not. Does it help to get people play? Oh YES! - HERO should offer CDs with the program and think of it as a way to keep people buying and playing the books.

[Tasha]

Champions Complete(and Fantasy Hero Complete) is 6e and available for any game store to keep in stock

[bigdamnhero]

Hero isn't more complex. That's a total myth.

 

What Hero is is more Front Loaded. It has a longer, more in depth, set up than other systems when taken to its generic bones.

 

There is a way to reduce the upfront work of getting a camapign ready, though, and it's rarely been done, and even when it is done, it only goes half way with it.

Exactly. In my mind there's two aspects to this:

1. Helping reduce the perception that Hero is more complex than it is by helping people get over that initial hump, and
2. Helping reduce the reality (IMO) that setting up a Hero campaign usually requires more prep time than many other games.

Well, from my perspective, aside from the villian and org books, hero has focused on buildability rather than playability. The materials released are 80% about design time (tool kitting) rather than run time.

That's a good way of putting it. It's not an either-or, it's about what's the "right" balance.

 

6e represents a very specific set of thinking about how to use Hero. It's not wrong, but it is at odds with how many of us use the system. The 5e era was more varied in part because the dynamic tension of different approaches was unresolved. You had people with more varied styles and a more freewheeling gaming culture. 6e is mechanically compatible with older editions, but it's not necessarily stylistically and philosophically compatible.

I'm not sure I see this. To me it feels like the big change came from 4e to 5e: vastly increased page count, more "legalistic" rules descriptions, and the "Ask Steve" board here that allowed us to get Official RAW rulings on every conceivable situation.* Minor rules tweaks aside, I don't feel like 6e was a significant departure stylistically, and I certainly don't feel like the feel of our games changed when we switched to 6e. I'm curious where you see those stylistic/philosophical changes in 6e?

 

* This isn't a complaint - personally I love knowing the RAW answer whether I choose to ignore it or not.

[bigdamnhero]

Champions Complete(and Fantasy Hero Complete) is 6e and available for any game store to keep in stock

...at least in theory. I've yet to actually see them in physical stock anywhere. But that brings us back to marketing.

[Vondy]

 

I'm not sure I see this. To me it feels like the big change came from 4e to 5e: vastly increased page count, more "legalistic" rules descriptions, and the "Ask Steve" board here that allowed us to get Official RAW rulings on every conceivable situation.* Minor rules tweaks aside, I don't feel like 6e was a significant departure stylistically, and I certainly don't feel like the feel of our games changed when we switched to 6e. I'm curious where you see those stylistic/philosophical changes in 6e?

 

* This isn't a complaint - personally I love knowing the RAW answer whether I choose to ignore it or not.

 

Its a difference of extremes. And, this will sound weird, its subtle mechanical shifts that create big psychological departures. 5e was a significant move towards where we ended up during 6e, but it hadn't gone "Full Monty." If you look at the ultimate books, Steve talks a lot about different ways of using the system and makes it clear you can adjust granuality to taste. He presents his way in most of the published materials (which is totally understandable), but remained very accommodating to the rest of us.

 

I felt a distinct shift (on the boards at least) during the 6e development threads. There was a very vocal group of old timers who wanted the system used in a very specific way, and broken down into ever more discreet and granular parts. For me, I felt they were taking the system to logical extremes that were not, from a play-ability perspective, necessarily reasonable. 5e read like a gloss on 4e. It cleaned some things up and said, "hey, look at what you can do with the underlying mechanics!" Yet, it was presented with a clear "if you want to."

 

6e mechanically encoded a lot of that gloss, and optional granularity, into the system so that it was no longer "if you want to!" A lot of what is in 6e now could have been optional add ins rather than default settings for a new edition. It turned the system into work, added a layer of hard-coded granularity that did not accommodate "less-fiddly" users, and is harder to ignore than it was in 5e. Is 6e logical? Absolutely. Extremely so. Is it reasonable? Only for some. Its harder to take RAW out than to add options in, and that is the key issue I keep running up against with 5e vs. 6e. The wonks won.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Hero isn't more complex. That's a total myth.

 

What Hero is is more Front Loaded. 

Right, that's been dealt with here over and over.  The assumption is false, and that's what we're up against: changing that presumption.  And easy-in front end stuff would change that significantly.  Steve Long did a brilliant job setting up the rules as a core, and all that's needed are quick-in introductions to settings using that core.

 

[Vondy]

 

Right, that's been dealt with here over and over.  The assumption is false, and that's what we're up against: changing that presumption.  And easy-in front end stuff would change that significantly.  Steve Long did a brilliant job setting up the rules as a core, and all that's needed are quick-in introductions to settings using that core.

 

 

100%.

[Christopher R Taylor]

And I should add, that's exactly what we're working on together for Champions in this thread right on this forum.  If you want to be part of the solution, pitch in.

 

Or start your own project.  It has never been easier to write, design, publish, and sell products before in the history of mankind.

[bigdamnhero]

6e mechanically encoded a lot of that gloss, and optional granularity, into the system so that it was no longer "if you want to!" A lot of what is in 6e now could have been optional add ins rather than default settings for a new edition..

Can you list some specific examples of things you feel went that direction? Not arguing - just curious.

[Surrealone]

The only reason why my group hasn't adopted 6th edition is :

1) How to get the two basic books? (Well, I have them but paid dearly for them)

2) Some stuff is now different but only marginally so - meaning that you think you know how stuff works but there is some knack that is different. This causes confusion, more ven than learning a rule just from scratch.

3) "Oh great, after ONE bloated rules book (5th edition in comparison to 4th edeition) now there TWO of them !"

 

This resonates with me, lately...