Solving the Mook Problem: How to 'kill' Mobs

[Altair]

Is that not what I was just describing? :-D

 

For sure! Just with a bunch of mechanics that I'm unfamiliar with. It is possible that it is very streamlined and elegant; I remain skeptical, but haven't seen this build in play.

[Doc Democracy]

Let me see if I can find the motivation to write it up and post it.

 

If I was lucius, you would have two versions already along with some dry wit... :-(

[Doc Democracy]

You know? Let me walk through my thinking for designing a group of mooks.

 

My group of fantasy players are heading towards Greyhawk and I need to have a group of night watchmen for what I plan to happen.

 

I have a decent Serjeant of guard character that any one of the players would be able to take out without too much trouble but I do not want to run eight or nine of these, instead I want to boost the Serjeant because he has his men. I want him to hit more often, be more difficult hit and more difficult to scare.

 

I add the following to the serjeant's stats:

 

+5 BODY per guard (+40)

+1 OCV per pair of guards (+4)

+1 DCV per pair of guards (+4)

+1 SPD per pair of guards (+4)

+5 PRE per pair of guards (+20)

 

I don't want to track STUN so I take Takes no STUN, The 45 point level as they will lose the boosts as BODY is taken.

 

I want to reflect that the mooks can spread out and so buy ranged and no range modifier on STR. (I am going to allow the watch to use its weapons within that range as if it was a hand to hand combat)

 

There is no REC, but I don't see any limitation to the Watch so no points for that.

 

I also take regeneration. +10 BODY, 1 recoverable charge. This is simply a way to reflect that the squad might get reinforced.

 

I have also taken the physical limitation of 2x BODY from normal attacks and from area effect attacks this is simply to rebalance the takes no stun element and to reflect the multiple targets an area effect attack would hit.

 

As combat ensues, the Watch begins to lose its powers as BODY damage accumulates.

 

This is a well-drilled group of soldiers which is why the boosts are so high. A more irregular group might get fewer stats per 10 BODY. This watch will defeat a poorly organised group of characters but can be taken if approached correctly.

 

Doc

[Altair]

Slick.

[Doc Democracy]

I do think we too often get caught up in the wording of the powers in the book.  It takes real effort to drag yourself into the meta-plane you need to inhabit to divorce game effect and game mechanic.

 

I need to sit down and actually write down what I want to happen before I can even get close to inhabiting the meta-plane.  The area effect on STR and the 2X BODY from area effect attacks came late to me because it was not obvious what I needed until I wrote them down...but they are crucial if I wanted to be able to reflect the ability of the squad to spread out and that the BODY reflected several people rather than just one.

 

HERO can do really amazing things mechanics wise.  I would never however show that construct to the players.  As far as they would be concerned they were fighting a troop of soldiers.  It would be for me to describe how the interplay of teamwork provided their advantages and how (as BODY accumulated) various troopers dropped out of the combat and the gaps that created began to make the combat easier.

 

Once the troop begins to lose it should collapse quickly, easily shown to the players as the squad losing men and unable to provide the cover and distraction they did at the start.  The last 10 BODY would simply be using the Serjeant as written...who might then decide to negotiate rather than fight to the death....

[Hugh Neilson]

Doc, can I make a called shot on the Sergeant? I find players often want to target the leader rather than the mooks!

[massey]

Doc, can I make a called shot on the Sergeant? I find players often want to target the leader rather than the mooks!

Sure, he's just really tough until his buddies fall down.

[Hugh Neilson]

That's where I question the called shot - is it possible to take out the Sarge without taking out his buddies? If not, we lose some verisimilitude.

[IndianaJoe3]

Doc, can I make a called shot on the Sergeant? I find players often want to target the leader rather than the mooks!

 

I don't see a reason why you couldn't, although the normal penalties for a, "head" shot would apply.

[Lucius]

Let me see if I can find the motivation to write it up and post it.

 

If I was lucius, you would have two versions already along with some dry wit... :-(

You flatter me....

 

My own approach to building "minions" has been to build "squad powers" that have the "requires multiple users" Limitation, so that a group makes one attack but the OCV, damage, Area of Effect, amount of Autofire, etc. depend on how many there still are. Individuals are still targeted and taken out as individuals, but instead of having to roll 5 different attacks I roll 1 attack with perhaps +10 OCV and Autofire.

 

I make no claim that it's a superior solution but it's one that's worked for me in play sometimes.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary observes that sometimes Lucius Alexander's wit seems to dry up and blow away

[bigdamnhero]

For most mook battles I stat out them out individually, but when they go down they generally stay down. How many actually survive afterwards depends on the campaign/genre. For games where "killing the bad guys" is generally the idea, I just assume that the number of Mooks That Die = number of Mooks That The PCs Want Dead, without further discussion. Yeah, it's a handwave, but I don't generally see the utility in playing out the post-fight execution. Unless of course, I or the players want "What do you do with the survivors?" to be a plot point.

 

I do second previous comments about limiting their rDef compared to their normal Def. You can also use a flat x2 STUN Modifier for Killing attacks (either by default or just vs mooks), which makes it more likely they'll get to 0 BODY before they get to 0 STUN anyway.

 

Another method might be to make attacks against Stunned/KO'd mooks do x2 BODY, along the lines of the x2 STUN modifier for being surprised?

 

+5 BODY per guard (+40)
+1 OCV per pair of guards (+4)
+1 DCV per pair of guards (+4)
+1 SPD per pair of guards (+4)
+5 PRE per pair of guards (+20)

I've done something similar for really large mobs/small armies, and I think it works well. My only suggestion is to maybe tie the boosts to each doubling of mooks, rather than each additional pair; probably not a big difference for small groups, but allows you to scale up to larger "formations" and is IMO more in line with Hero's normal exponential increase philosophy. YMMV.

[massey]

That's where I question the called shot - is it possible to take out the Sarge without taking out his buddies? If not, we lose some verisimilitude.

 

When you take Sarge out, his buddies panic and run.

[Doc Democracy]

As for taking out the Serjeant, I guess it all comes down to GM description. I like called shots allowing extra body to be done but I think that I would be describing how that impacts. As a hero targets the Serjeant there are always mooks hanging around, it may be impossible to engage without his troops intervening and working to protect the Serjeant. For the same reason, he will have one trooper looking for missile attacks and providing cover.

 

This is a highly functioning, well-trained team and if the Serjeant drops his corporal will rally the troops and take over.

 

There are worse ones. For those, I would build in frailties. Susceptibility to called shots. If the troop collapses with the loss of the leader then make that susceptibility high - the added BODY is reflected in troops breaking and running rather than them dying.

 

I like the idea about geometric rather than arithmetic progression for larger scales but you need to be careful about this otherwise heroes attacking armies have strange results early in the battle....would need some additional protections based on the nature of attacks...

[massey]

I've thought about using this for large groups before.  I think I'd describe attacks against it as hitting multiple people per shot.  So when Captain Brick punches one guy, he goes flying back and slams into two more.  That's three men down with one punch.  Each attack drops a small group, until finally the players look around and there's nobody left standing.  Keep the number of agents vague, and remember that more can always join in the fight, and guys can always run away.  I'd probably encourage players to use combat maneuvers like spreading their attacks and using sweep maneuvers, and may secretly give some sort of bonuses for that.

[Doc Democracy]

Yup, you would use different numbers and descriptions in different genres.  Superheroes need to be throwing lots more mooks around, though given the fact that they have bigger attacks - it would not need much adjustment!  :-)

 

The biggest issue with superheroes might be the need for the mook group to have much higher speed to fight multiple heroes...

[Ninja-Bear]

Now that I think about it, I need to look at the Ultimate Metamorph to see if it has any suggestions too.

 

A) Im happy that im not alone in thinking about using powers to represent squads

 

Sad because I thought about this roughly five years ago and still having put any flesh to it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Inspiration-how about using growth to represent unit size. Natually though growth would be hoziontal instead of vertical.

[Doc Democracy]

I considered growth but it really does constrain verisimilitude as it unduly restricts movements of the squad.

 

I do prefer using STR at range, with no range penalties...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Having taken a look at Persona on der Wikipedia (which, as well we all know, is the be-all end-all of knowledge of the human race, ja??), I think i would tend to do the 'shift to lethal damage' sort of thing - though I would also always have any 'still living' mooks be tottering, braced and struggling to stay up, or whatever - so that the players never have to run around stabbing everything that's fallen 'just to make sure'.  If it's flat, it's out for good; if it's propped up on one arm, shoot it again.