"Basic Box Sets". Does Hero NEED Them To Get New Players?

[steriaca]

Basicly, do we realy need a basic set (like a box set or a basic setting + basic rules book) to get new players? Would you buy it? What would you want to see in such a product? How would you structer the 'advance' products which comes after it?

[ghost-angel]

Need is a strong word.

 

I would say that, given the direction of Complete Champions and Complete Fantasy and the lack of printing of the last set of full rules for the system in book form, it would be a benefit to Hero if future Setting Books contained a Basic Rules + Setting Optional Rules with them so a group need only grab a single book to play, and then actually support some of those settings with Setting Specific Books.

 

The days of quasi-generic Hero Supplements like the Equipment Guide (which, honestly, I never really liked), are gone I think.

 

If they aren't going to keep the fully generic rules around, the quasi-generic supplements shouldn't be around either.

[Matt Holck]

basic digestible rules make playing a table top game out of the box possible

direct language is the most compact and often easier to digest (understand Connection)

[Beast]

Monster Hunter International ,FHC and CC are pretty much going to cover this

 

At 40$ for FHC/CC is the norm

if you want something like a quick start/something cheaper

I'd say redo Wildstrike to 6th ed standard and give it away for free

 

 

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/classic/rev_993.phtml

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

A super basic intro player's guide type of rules would be a good idea, as for a box set I'd suggest Champions Complete, the basic player book, and maybe Microfilm Madness as a adventure thrown in would be a good idea.  That way you have the GM book and the Player book as was suggested for 6th edition for a single price.

[mhd]

Definitely no actual boxes. I don't think they're a very good idea if you want to evoke interest -- they're a good entry point if there's already interest, but you don't want to invest too much money and time to get a first few games started. Sorry, but HERO isn't at that level.

 

I think Champions Complete has shown that HERO can be surprisingly slim (in a non cut-down version). My ideal (yet very unlikely) core book would actually be generic (no generic fantasy, no four color supers, no gun nuttery) and digest-sized.

 

And OGL

[zslane]

Aren't we mostly rehashing what was discussed at length in the "7th edition thoughts" thread?

[steriaca]

Yes, but a "basic box" doesn't mean a new edition of the rules, simply a hand-holding introduction to the main game.

[Ninja-Bear]

Basicly, do we realy need a basic set (like a box set or a basic setting + basic rules book) to get new players? Would you buy it? What would you want to see in such a product? How would you structer the 'advance' products which comes after it?

!

Isn't this was how Hero system started out? You had Champions, Danger International, Fantasy Hero, and Robot Warriors each with a complete

[Ninja-Bear]

(Sorry pressed wrong button). They each had a complete set of rules and Hero did better. I think two segments of the gaming community people forget is a) money is tight so I'm careful as to what I spend it on. Time is tight so I want something I'm able to pick up and run with it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The first copy of Champions I bought came in a box if I remember correctly but I can't remember what all was in it.  Dice, an adventure, and Champions, I think, way back in the early 80s

[Beast]

Back when Champions came out it was the WHOLE game
the standard of that period was just what Champions did
pretty much Hero system has been right in the middle where the standard has been

The first copy of Champions I bought came in a box if I remember correctly but I can't remember what all was in it.  Dice, an adventure, and Champions, I think, way back in the early 80s

[Scott Baker]

The first copy of Champions I bought came in a box if I remember correctly but I can't remember what all was in it.  Dice, an adventure, and Champions, I think, way back in the early 80s

The 2E box also came with a hex map of a street corner. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

That's what it was, I still have that and used it many times

[steriaca]

Ninja-Bear is right. This is one of what I expect in a beginner's product: something economically priced, simple, and complete. Play right out of the box. After that, we need tons of first party support, like in the ICE Age.

[zslane]

A possible counter-example (to the Boxed Set For Dummies approach) is the first edition of Vampire: the Masquerade. That book, and the World of Darkness that it introduced, did more to spark the greatest influx of new roleplayers into the hobby since AD&D 1st ed. And it was just a single volume that had the core rules, a rich gothic setting painted in fairly broad strokes, and tons of inspiration and adventure seeds thrown in. It oozed with atmosphere and potential. The books that followed after it fleshed out the bones of a skeleton that was more or less fully constructed in the core book. You didn't just get a set of mechanics and some advice on how to make spooky adventures. You got the World of Darkness. And even if you didn't like it, you had to respect its depth and richness.

 

More RPGs should aspire to the kind of product launch V:tM had.

 

But the goal of such a book for the Hero System should be as a launch pad for a particular setting, whether its for the superhero genre or something else. Because setting is king. People will put up with mechanics they don't love in order to play in a setting they do love. But people won't flock to a system if the mechanics are highly complex and there isn't an awesome setting to make them overcome their aversion to math.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree that a lot of adventure ideas is good.  At least one full length multi-part adventure, 2-3 longer adventure ideas, and a dozen or more short adventure ideas.  These short adventure ideas could be just a few paragraphs at most, and cover key superhero story concepts such as DNPCs, Secret Identities, Nemesis Villains (a character's hunted), some basic psych comps that are common such as code vs killing, protective of innocents etc, and that kind of thing.  

 

That gives the GM tools to fill character stories and a running start at a campaign, especially if a series of adventures are put out (rewriting and repackaging old adventures the way D&D does each edition is a good step too.  Its easy and cheap since they're already written.  All you need is some art and new layouts).  A few simplified ready-to-run character sheets for like 10 different types of characters as starter easy and a neat mat like the hex map for an easy combat area would be nice add ins.

 

A box set like that would be welcome, especially with a system of reaching out to players and doing events at game stores to help teach the game and introduce people to Champions could be pretty effective.  I read an article recently in the Boston Globe that claimed gaming - particularly D&D - is experiencing a renewal because of old gamers starting up again, gaming and geek culture becoming popular, and popular culture embracing fantasy and adventure.

[IndianaJoe3]

How about offering a, "Beginner's Bundle" (CC and CU) from he Hero Store? (CU might have to be set up for POD, but I don't see that as a show-stopper.)

[Old Man]

My understanding is that physical boxes are expensive. However, that's based on pretty old information; perhaps costs have gone down with manufacturing in China, or perhaps there's a more economical packaging method like giant blister packs or those folding plastic cases like they used to put VHS tapes in.

 

As long as we're dreaming, it would be hilarious if a beginner edition of Champions could be published in comic book format.

[zslane]

Well, IndianaJoe, perhaps you're on to something, of sorts. Instead of putting those two books in one box, how about putting those two books under one cover. Perhaps that is what CC should have been from the start, particularly if it was aimed at newcomers to the system.

 

Actually, it probably should have been something like CC+CU, but also featuring a chapter providing a set of starting characters and a quick adventure mission.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think an interesting campaign setting is the key. that is what draws players in. and that setting must be well supported. case in point, champions remains Hero's most popular line because of not only it's history, but the depth to which the champions setting has been developed and detailed. their other setting lack both the development history and the detail/support that champions does. a beginner boxed set may be a good idea to boost initial interest, but without an appropriate campaign setting to keep players coming back for more, i'm afraid it's going to be just more wasted effort.

[steriaca]

Setting is king. I agree about that. I also think asking $40 for a 'beginners book' is a bit to much. I do not consider Champions Complete to be an entery level book. That is because it replaces 6ed p1 and p2, in an economical package, and is not designed as a 'welcome to Champions' book. Same for the upcoming Fantasy Hero Complete.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Thankfully with Superheroic games, setting is pretty light duty.  You pick a modern, existing city in a time period, and there's your setting.  With villain books, the Champions Universe book, and adventures, you're ready to go.

[Greywind]

Failing that, there are city setting books available and easily brought up to 6th's standards.

[Nolgroth]

At this point, I am not sure what can help Hero get new players. Boxed sets or bundles seem like a good idea on the surface, but I tend to like things like that. Quick Start rules, Beginner Boxes and their ilk are like little magnets to attract my interest. Then again, I have to ask how many of these actually influenced me to buy the game.

 

Shadowrun Quickstart: Already owned previous editions of the game so it was more to test the new mechanics (4th ed at the time) than to learn about the game for the first time. So nominally yes.

 

Pathfinder Beginner Box: Already owned Pathfinder RPG PDF. The Beginner Box was to create an easy start for my kids. So no.

 

D&D 4E Red Box: I already had purchased the little Quick Start rules that game with the first 4E module, Keep on the Borderlands. I was hoping that the Red Box would allow a few levels of play. Not so much. I did end up buying Essentials so another nominal yes.

 

Mechwarrior: No.

 

Earthdawn: No.

 

Game of Thrones: No.

 

Any of the Weis Productions Cortex previews: Nominally yes because I bought the core Cortex rules. None of the actual settings though.

 

Riddle of Steel: No. Intrigued but ultimately no.

 

Dragon Age: No.

 

There were many others, but that trend shows me that, though I like the little Quick Starts, they have seldom influenced my decision to buy. The strongest case was the Red Box and that was out of frustration more than the enticement of a solid product. In retrospect, I probably should have turned around and walked away based on my experience with the product. I just saw some things that I liked so I took a chance on the full rules and was rewarded for it. The Cortex rules, on the other hand, have sat in stagnation in a forgotten folder, somewhere on my hard drive. Pathfinder, though it is a very solid product only gets dusted off every once in a while and then, only when I want to read something other than a Hero book. Shadowrun is the only game on that list that I really want to invest any time in running. I'm more likely to find a Hero group at this point.

 

So do we need boxed sets or bundles? I'd say no. A few months back I might have argued differently. I might still argue that an expanded Genre by Genre ebook might be appropriate. One that defines how to run a game of specific power level for each genre (points ranges, Stat and Skill maximums, power ranges) as well as common pitfalls from the fictional medium that don't translate well to the game table. More adventures for each genre would be welcome. Not sure what will help or if there is any help. To be honest, I'm kind of done worrying about it. I'm trying like hell to portion out some mental energy to devote to building a new campaign and running a game. I'll leave the market strategies to those more attuned to that sort of thing.