Cassandra Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 PRIMUS & UNTIL are decent examples of two different flavors of super-cop organizations. But I don't really think a campaign needs both of them, so pick whichever one fits your campaign best and run with it. A plot point in my last Champions campaign was that PRIMUS had been moved under Homeland Security, losing a good deal of its autonomy (and effectiveness) in the process. I modeled it on the way FEMA was swallowed by DHS post-9/11 and pre-Katrina. It wasn't a major theme, but played out in the background as the Heroes had friends in PRIMUS, but poor relations with the higher-up DHS bureaucrats. Oh yeah, and the DHS Under-Secretary turned out to be a VIPER stooge, but that's another story. Interesting twist, since the UNTIL A.I. is in cahoots with the Supreme Serpent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Interesting twist, since the UNTIL A.I. is in cahoots with the Supreme Serpent. I'd actually forgotten that bit of canon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 I'd actually forgotten that bit of canon! Arthur T. Whitebone, the head of the UNTIL bureaucracy, is tacitly aware of the fact, but finds the situation advantageous. The UNTIL A.I. knows he knows. It is unknown if the UNTIL A.I. has informed the Supreme Serpent of that fact. This is exactly what happened with SHIELD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Would you like to play a game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Thermon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 Heil Haydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 I always thought that UNTIL was more inspired by "The Man from UNCLE" then SHIELD. UNCLE - United Network Command for Law and Enforcement. It's enemy was THRUSH, the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and the Subjugation of Humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted November 20, 2014 Report Share Posted November 20, 2014 I think I'll go and create some Champions Complete SAT templates stat (pun intended). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rails Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Would you like to play a game? I understood that reference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I always thought that UNTIL was more inspired by "The Man from UNCLE" then SHIELD. UNCLE - United Network Command for Law and Enforcement. It's enemy was THRUSH, the Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and the Subjugation of Humanity. I remember Stan Lee writing in a compilation of Marvel origin stories that his goal with Nick Fury, Agent Of SHIELD was to "out-UNCLE UNCLE, and out-Bond Bond!" So both SHIELD and UNTIL owe a debt to UNCLE--as does CONTROL, for that matter, except that CONTROL was an exclusively American agency. That said, I always thought of SHIELD and UNTIL as visibly uniformed forces, not the undercover covert operations agency that was UNCLE. UNCLE never had anything like SHIELD's helicarrier or UNTIL's Swordfish submarine, nor, I think, did they have any vehicles boldly emblazoned with their emblem. They just had impeccably smooth, thoroughly competent agents who always kept their cool no matter how hot the situation would get. Not unlike the inspiration for UNCLE himself--Bond. James Bond. (Is there a Champions Universe analog for James Bond? There ought to be. ) Anyway, given the number of Marvel-influenced characters in the Champions Universe--Doctor Destroyer (Doctor Doom) Mechanon (Ultron) Icestar (Iceman) Brick (The Thing) Grond (The Hulk) and VIPER (HYDRA), it seems more likely that UNTIL was modeled after SHIELD. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Used by the Black Widow used it in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. Wargames (1983) QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I understood that reference! ...uclear war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I understood that reference! He saw the movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 UNTIL vs SHIELD Super Agents with Supertechnolgy vs Super Agents with Gadgets $ Gear. Overt Agents vs Covert Agents Budget vs Budget Loyal vs Disunity See alternate versions of UNTIL: Defenders of Freedom. Variant views on Superhumans and Superheroes. More later QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 UNTIL is said to have 35,000 agents in bases worldwide. They also have 100,000 support personnel. Agent types include Defenders, Investigators, Technical Services, Light Horse, Frogman, Prisoner Transfer, and Experimental. SAT has 300 agents, and 1,000 support personnel. One out of five agents has investigator training. PRIMUS is mentioned to be several times larger then SAT with roughly 2000 agents, with roughly 5,000 support personnel.. They have Silver Avengers, Iron Guards, Investigators, and Assault Agents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 In my Champions universe Primus has a "paper" strength of 500 Avengers (currently 327, including the "bronze" Avengers) and 25,000 other agents, mostly support, about 5000 field and/or combat. Plus several "Cyberline sensitives" that are pocket weight Super normals, who have gained much more from beta Cyberline than is "normal". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I've always questioned the using of drugs to create super-soldiers. The problem is the drug might have side effects, or become addictive. The use of powered armor would be a safer way into introducing more firepower and durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Certainly the use of the Super Soldier serum without the vitae-rays resulted in a lot of lunatics and monsters after Captain America went missing, in the Marvel universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Cybernetics are only morally acceptable as replacements when healing is impossible. Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 "Everything that's special about you came out of a bottle." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 So the difference between Captain American and Hourman is that Cap ignored the warning to seek medical attention if the effects lasted longer than 4 hours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Primary Response Interdiction Military Unified Service United Nations Tribunal on International Law That PRIMUS acronym is from the 4E incarnation. As of 5E it now officially stands for, "Paranormal Research and Investigation Mission of the United States." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Thank you. Next question is where is the information on primus. I assume primus and demon has some, but is there another book for them? Classic Organizations expanded the 4E version of the group. The last dedicated source book for them, the PDF PRIMUS by Shelley Chrystal Mactyre (1998), developed the org in much more detail. BTW that book is still available from the Hero Games online store for an absolute steal, and although dated is still a fine book in its own right. There's some more up-to-date info about PRIMUS in the 5E and 6E Champions Universe books, but not much. It carries forward some details from the earlier version, but changes others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 Interesting twist, since the UNTIL A.I. is in cahoots with the Supreme Serpent. Just to note that that data-point applies to the 4E versions of UNTIL and VIPER. 5E/6E has no such relationship, not to mention a very different Supreme Serpent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 22, 2014 Report Share Posted November 22, 2014 UNTIL is said to have 35,000 agents in bases worldwide. They also have 100,000 support personnel. Agent types include Defenders, Investigators, Technical Services, Light Horse, Frogman, Prisoner Transfer, and Experimental. SAT has 300 agents, and 1,000 support personnel. One out of five agents has investigator training. PRIMUS is mentioned to be several times larger then SAT with roughly 2000 agents, with roughly 5,000 support personnel.. They have Silver Avengers, Iron Guards, Investigators, and Assault Agents. The current version of UNTIL, from UNTIL: Defenders Of Freedom, is much more diverse in its agent types and equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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