Old Man Posted July 18, 2022 Report Share Posted July 18, 2022 Thor 4 worldwide box office has reached $700M, surpassing Thor 1 and 2 and closing in on Ragnarok at $850M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 20, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 How Martin Scorsese Steered Marvel Towards Its Flop Era https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/film/a40653210/martin-scorsese-marvel/ Article is worth reading. Posting it for others interest. Comment: but did he? Well no. The writer doesn’t make the necessary connection, for me, anyway. Scorsese‘s comments refer to films from the date of his first comment to previous films, not the Phase 4 films. So Scorsese‘s comments are irrelevant to the Phase 4 films, nor can it be said that he steered Marvel to what the writer says is Marvel’s ‘Flop Era’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 Based on viewership and box office, I don't think Phase 4 would be considered flops. Compare to, say, views of a Hero NGD post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 Well, Hollywood uses terms a bit differently than you or I. If a movie "only" makes a few million, that is considered a flop. Certainly compared to Phases 2 and 3, the most recent stuff is doing very badly, including some films that flat out lost money like Eternals. Hollywood is very tough to pin down in terms of earnings because they are so, shall we say, fast and loose with accounting and unwilling to share all the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-office_bomb A box-office bomb, box-office flop, or box-office failure is a film that is unprofitable or considered highly unsuccessful during its theatrical run. Although any film for which the production, marketing, and distribution costs combined exceed the revenue after release has technically "bombed", the term is more frequently used for major studio releases that were highly anticipated, extensively marketed and expensive to produce that ultimately failed commercially. Eternals: The general rule of thumb for a film's breakeven point is its production budget doubled. Budget for Eternals was $200 million and worldwide gross was $400 million - so it 'broke even'. It has the 2nd worst domestic gross in MCU history behind Incredible Hulk (one could argue this wasn't even really a true MCU movie), the 2nd worst domestic opening behind Ant-Man (a Phase 3 movie) and is the only Marvel studios movie to have a 'Rotten' score on Rottentomatoes. Also, compared to GotG (which is also a ensemble movie of unknown characters) - it has less than half the domestic gross. Lawnmower Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 Then Thor: Love and Thunder has already achieved "breakeven" against its production cost of $250M and anything it earns henceforth is gravy. Also, Forbes: 3 Reasons Marvel is Now Playing Defense Lawnmower Boy and slikmar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 Quote The general rule of thumb for a film's breakeven point is its production budget doubled. Its more than that, but that's the rough and dirty back of the napkin way of stating it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted July 20, 2022 Report Share Posted July 20, 2022 4 hours ago, Old Man said: Then Thor: Love and Thunder has already achieved "breakeven" against its production cost of $250M and anything it earns henceforth is gravy. Also, Forbes: 3 Reasons Marvel is Now Playing Defense Good article. I often joke that at this point a "bad" Marvel movie (like Pixar to me) is still better then 60% of the stuff released. Also, I really don't think it can be underestimated with big screen tvs and Covid stuff still going on, how much these movies being released on Disney+ are affecting box office. Pay $30 at home for you and the kids to watch or go to theater and spend over that on tickets alone, not to mention snacks etc. Also, the loss of Russia and China markets is also very big, as can be seen by the numbers in that article. I went and saw Paws of Fury: The legend of Hank and our local theater was empty. weekday, afternoon, but summer. Now, I live in a relatively small town and the theater isn';t usually that busy, but no kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 On 7/20/2022 at 12:13 PM, Starlord said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-office_bomb A box-office bomb, box-office flop, or box-office failure is a film that is unprofitable or considered highly unsuccessful during its theatrical run. Although any film for which the production, marketing, and distribution costs combined exceed the revenue after release has technically "bombed", the term is more frequently used for major studio releases that were highly anticipated, extensively marketed and expensive to produce that ultimately failed commercially. Eternals: The general rule of thumb for a film's breakeven point is its production budget doubled. Budget for Eternals was $200 million and worldwide gross was $400 million - so it 'broke even'. It has the 2nd worst domestic gross in MCU history behind Incredible Hulk (one could argue this wasn't even really a true MCU movie), the 2nd worst domestic opening behind Ant-Man (a Phase 3 movie) and is the only Marvel studios movie to have a 'Rotten' score on Rottentomatoes. Also, compared to GotG (which is also a ensemble movie of unknown characters) - it has less than half the domestic gross. This isn't accurate any more, I think. Major films are a company's "earnings report" for a quarter, more or less, so when the box office numbers slide...when critical reviews aren't good...it's analogous to a company missing its earnings statement. Even if there was a profit...it wasn't good enough profit. That's modern business. Scott Ruggels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 I would be truly shocked if they cast the Fantastic Four to look like their comic book characters. Scott Ruggels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 https://www.superherohype.com/movies/516913-yelena-belova-creators-accuse-marvel-of-shortchanging-them-for-black-widow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Sounds like their agents or contract lawyers failed them. It was a bad contract, but they signed it. Of course Disney could do the right thing anyway, but we all know the Mouse doesn't play that way. The devil, as they say, is in the details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/20/2022 at 6:26 AM, Bazza said: How Martin Scorsese Steered Marvel Towards Its Flop Era https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/film/a40653210/martin-scorsese-marvel/ Article is worth reading. Posting it for others interest. Comment: but did he? Well no. The writer doesn’t make the necessary connection, for me, anyway. Scorsese‘s comments refer to films from the date of his first comment to previous films, not the Phase 4 films. So Scorsese‘s comments are irrelevant to the Phase 4 films, nor can it be said that he steered Marvel to what the writer says is Marvel’s ‘Flop Era’. Yeah, this doesn't seem to die. I mostly think it was about how a revered director tore into the movies that actually make money in the modern era. I keep coming around to "Guy remembered for making gangster movies 40 years ago shakes fist at clouds about superheroes". I know his body of work is much larger and much more varied than that, I know he has made important and powerful movies, but he is from another generation. He was one of my Dad's favorite filmmakers and my grandparents thought his work was violent and crass. The part where he hates what the kids like today is not a surprise. Everyone these movies are made for is young enough to be his grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 The thing is, Scorcese doesn't hate superhero movies, he hates that nobody is making much OTHER than Superhero movies, and its squeezing out any other content or creativity on the part of studios. Its like publishing only pulp novels and refusing to try anything deeper or better written. Pulp books can be loads of fun and are just fine, but if that's making other, better stuff not get made... that's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 If that is the case then he is arguing again the ubiquity of superheroes...similarly in decades past was the ubiquity of westerns. slikmar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said: he hates that nobody is making much OTHER than Superhero movies There are plenty of non superhero movies being made. His problem is that the superhero movies are getting a wider audience. Boo freaking hoo. People have options, just because they aren't exercising him in the way he wants doesn't mean they aren't there. We have an embarrassment of riches to watch of everything these days both in the theater and via streaming. Small art house films have a bigger potential to reach people than they ever have before, for example, whether through word getting out about limited screenings, or going to streaming. But he isn't concerned with quality getting seen. He's crying over split milk because his type of populist trash isn't the current vogue in populist trash. Yawn. Starlord, Lee and slikmar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 4 hours ago, Jhamin said: Yeah, this doesn't seem to die. I mostly think it was about how a revered director tore into the movies that actually make money in the modern era. I keep coming around to "Guy remembered for making gangster movies 40 years ago shakes fist at clouds about superheroes". I know his body of work is much larger and much more varied than that, I know he has made important and powerful movies, but he is from another generation. He was one of my Dad's favorite filmmakers and my grandparents thought his work was violent and crass. The part where he hates what the kids like today is not a surprise. Everyone these movies are made for is young enough to be his grandchildren and great-grandchildren. That has to be one of the most irritating articles I've read in a while. It talks vaguely of the Marvel franchise "anticlimax" and being in a "funk" with zero evidence of any kind. Even more maddeningly it somehow attributes this to things Scorsese said three years ago. It's the most clickbaity article I've read about Marvel possibly ever. Ironically Scorsese would have a point if he complained about the dominance of franchises in filmmaking. The majority of theatrical releases nowadays are sequels, Star Wars or Fast and Furious or supers, and it does choke the air supply off from more artistic films. Then again he's kind of throwing rocks from a glass house given how often he returns to the gangster movie formula. Jhamin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted July 23, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Wouldn’t gangster moviex just be the hard boiled police pulps from the 30s (or so)? if yes, then he should make a “Batman” film in the style of a gangster film. Like Green Hornet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Quote similarly in decades past was the ubiquity of westerns. 50 years ago, yeah. But Westerns were treated a lot differently, you got some pretty thought provoking amazing cinema that was just set in a western frontier genre. Superhero films -- even the best -- haven't managed to give us anything like that yet, although Captain America II was a good spy thriller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 There are many problems with Marvel films right no, and it all happened because Bob Eiger and Kevin Feige tossed Ike Permutter out the door, as Perlmutter was the number one Marvel Comics fan. They tossed him, because he would not greenlight a Black Panther Movie. Because of that Marvel became detached from it's comic past. Feige then made everything post Endgame more female centric, and Superhero comics, being primarily a celebration of Masculinity and Heroism, became problematic, so plots were either female sidekicks, or "The Girl Who is the key to everything" plots, and it lost it's momentum. https://screenrant.com/marvel-mcu-female-heroes/ While not as insulting to the original fans as Star Wars recent offerings, there is enough "woke" here and there to make the films less attractive to the original fans. Also, directors for Marvel films aren't hired, but "cast" to fit identity demographics, and they bring in a lot of "fresh talent", because they don't pay the directors enough for old hands to want to work with them, and they bristle at Feige's heavy hand. Now originally James Gunn was supposed to have helmed Phase 4 movies, "The Cosmic phase", but an ill timed pedophile joke had Disney's head of THeatrical production fire him. Guardians 3 will end Phase 4, with Gunn in charge, but after that he is going to Warners, r and possibly taking Jon Favreau with him. Marvel has an industrial process for making the films where once the script is approved THe Special Effects are detailed and assigned to the effects houses, first to previs, )Pre-Visualization), and the stunt teams are gathered, and the stunt coordinators bright in, and then finally a Director is assigned. This is why there is a homogeneity to the Marvel films of late. They gave up on "Comic accurate" long ago. These are some of the reason why Phase 4 has underperformed. I have no hope for the Fantastic Four. The Only acceptable version was Roger Corman's that he did for that German Rights holder, a film that never got wide release, but I have a bootleg of I picked up at Comic-con years ago, when bootlegs were available. The casting will probably be Trendy, and I expect the casting announcement for it this weekend as Comic-con is going on right now. It's not that Superhero movies are getting bad, but that superheroes are a poor fit for the current Hollywood culture, and trying to merge the two make for an ultimately unsatisfying blend. pinecone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ruggels Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 As for the demise of the Western. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Vanity Fair: Why It Matters That Marvel Studios Just Escaped Its Billionaire C.E.O. (2016) Unrelated to the Vanity Fair article, I took the table from this page and computed profitability for all MCU films to date per the Starlord Method: Release Date Title Production Budget Worldwide Box Office Profitability Ratio As Defined By Starlord Jul 28, 2023 The Marvels May 5, 2023 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 Feb 17, 2023 Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quant… Nov 11, 2022 Black Panther: Wakanda Forever Jul 8, 2022 Thor: Love and Thunder $250,000,000 $524,770,696 2.099082784 so far May 6, 2022 Doctor Strange in the Multi… $200,000,000 $954,893,715 4.774468575 Dec 17, 2021 Spider-Man: No Way Home $200,000,000 $1,886,306,016 9.43153008 Nov 5, 2021 Eternals $200,000,000 $402,064,929 2.010324645 Sep 3, 2021 Shang-Chi and the Legend of… $150,000,000 $432,243,292 2.88162194666667 Jul 9, 2021 Black Widow $200,000,000 $379,751,655 1.898758275 Jul 2, 2019 Spider-Man: Far From Home $160,000,000 $1,132,532,832 7.0783302 Apr 26, 2019 Avengers: Endgame $400,000,000 $2,797,800,564 6.99450141 Mar 8, 2019 Captain Marvel $175,000,000 $1,129,727,388 6.45558507428571 Jul 6, 2018 Ant-Man and the Wasp $130,000,000 $623,144,660 4.79342046153846 Apr 27, 2018 Avengers: Infinity War $300,000,000 $2,048,359,754 6.82786584666667 Feb 16, 2018 Black Panther $200,000,000 $1,336,494,321 6.682471605 Nov 3, 2017 Thor: Ragnarok $180,000,000 $850,482,778 4.72490432222222 Jul 7, 2017 Spider-Man: Homecoming $175,000,000 $878,346,440 5.01912251428571 May 5, 2017 Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 $200,000,000 $869,113,101 4.345565505 Nov 4, 2016 Doctor Strange $165,000,000 $676,354,481 4.09911806666667 May 6, 2016 Captain America: Civil War $250,000,000 $1,151,918,521 4.607674084 Jul 17, 2015 Ant-Man $130,000,000 $518,858,449 3.99121883846154 May 1, 2015 Avengers: Age of Ultron $365,000,000 $1,395,316,979 3.82278624383562 Aug 1, 2014 Guardians of the Galaxy $170,000,000 $770,882,395 4.53460232352941 Apr 4, 2014 Captain America: The Winter… $170,000,000 $714,401,889 4.20236405294118 Nov 8, 2013 Thor: The Dark World $150,000,000 $644,602,516 4.29735010666667 May 3, 2013 Iron Man 3 $200,000,000 $1,215,392,272 6.07696136 May 4, 2012 The Avengers $225,000,000 $1,515,100,211 6.73377871555556 Jul 22, 2011 Captain America: The First … $140,000,000 $370,569,776 2.64692697142857 May 6, 2011 Thor $150,000,000 $449,326,618 2.99551078666667 May 7, 2010 Iron Man 2 $170,000,000 $621,156,389 3.65386111176471 Jun 13, 2008 The Incredible Hulk $137,500,000 $265,573,859 1.93144624727273 May 2, 2008 Iron Man $186,000,000 $585,171,547 3.14608358602151 Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Quote but an ill timed pedophile joke had Disney's head of THeatrical production fire him It was more than one, he had a long history of continually making pedo jokes and using kids being molested as a punchline on social media. It was his go-to joke, and given the state of Hollywood and how common molesting young stars is (going back to Shirley Temple and earlier) that just did not go well with fans of comic books. But now he's over at DC and it looks like Favreau has just about had it with Kathleen Kennedy on the Star Wars side, and may make the move as well. WB is totally restructuring its studio and comic book portions and things might look better soon in DCU. Scott Ruggels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said: I have no hope for the Fantastic Four. The Only acceptable version was Roger Corman's... True, unless you consider The Incredibles to be a Fantastic Four film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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