Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[slikmar]

probably could have shortened that to "he was looking for a scenario in which heroes". pretty sure, heroes, does not fit snyderverse ideals.

[Joe Walsh]

Say what you will about DC movies, at least the rides based on them didn't make people blow chunks en masse:

 

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Motion sickness bags now being offered to riders at Disney's Guardians of the Galaxy Cosmic Rewind rollercoaster

Based on our early rider reviews, motion sickness was not expected to be a significant issue at Cosmic Rewind, but as the general public is experiencing the ride, more and more cases of motion sickness are being reported.

To combat the issue, Disney has recently installed more garbage cans at the exit with an open top to allow easier access for vomiting guests.

On today's grand opening, Disney has gone a step further and is now offering vomit bags at the exit to anyone who might need one.

https://www.wdwmagic.com/attractions/guardians-of-the-galaxy/news/27may2022-motion-sickness-bags-now-being-offered-to-riders-at-the-exit-of-guardians-of-the-galaxy-cosmic-rewind.htm

 

[mattingly]

[Christopher R Taylor]

Over the next two years, Disney plans on putting out these shows and movies for Marvel:

 

Ms Marvel (already out)
Thor Love and Thunder
She Hulk
Halloween Special
What If Season 2
Guardians of the Galaxy Holiday Special
Secret Invasion
Wakanda Forever
Quantumania (Ant Man 3)
Guardians of the Galaxy vol 3
The Marvels
X-Men '97
Spiderman Four
Blade
Loki Season 2
Captain America 4
Deadpool 3
I Am Groot
Marvel Zombies
Spider-Man
Fantastic Four
Agatha Harkness
Armor Wars
Echo
Ironheart
Untitled Wakanda Series
Okoye
Daredevil
Shang Chi Series
Shang Chi 2
Nova

 

Now, look I get that they kind of have to flood the market to keep up with streaming binge watchers but there is really too much of a good thing.  And this isn't even a good thing.  Nobody can get this much out with any semblance of quality, and we've already seen a bit of a slump in CGI and writing quality in what is coming out lately anyway.

 

I mean, if the superhero fad hasn't already begun to fade, dumping this much on the market is only going to speed that day up.

 

And that is in addition to 12 new Star Wars properties.

[Bazza]

Phase Four has overall been a let down. 

[Old Man]

3 hours ago, Bazza said:

Phase Four has overall been a let down. 

 

Are you watching the same Phase Four I am?  Loki?  WandaVision?  Hawkeye?  Shang Chi?  Moon Knight?  If you want a letdown, go watch the Star Wars stuff.

[Bazza]

I have been. It is a mixture of comedy & tragedy. 

[Hugh Neilson]

So, some high-quality stuff, and some of mediocre or even poor quality.  Some that fits my tastes, so I like even an average presentation, and some that is far from my tastes, so even top-quality would not entice me.

 

If the objective was to bring an accurate emulation of the source material to movies and TV, I'd have to say they've exceeded all reasonable expectations

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, compared to the first phase, for example, its really been disappointment.  I think a great deal of the reason is that Marvel's movies are becoming film by committee rather than letting talented people free to do their best work.  I think it is that they are both scared that it won't work out so they have to fix things to make sure, and a desire to have a part in the next billion dollar project so you can put it on your resume -- or better yet, get a slice of the pie.

 

Their simple (stumbled into) formula of "great director, solid actors, and great writing" has become formulaic and over controlled with writing and directing becoming greatly deemphasized over a "winning" pattern and certain ideological concerns.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree, compared to the first phase, for example, its really been disappointment.  I think a great deal of the reason is that Marvel's movies are becoming film by committee rather than letting talented people free to do their best work.  I think it is that they are both scared that it won't work out so they have to fix things to make sure, and a desire to have a part in the next billion dollar project so you can put it on your resume -- or better yet, get a slice of the pie.

 

Their simple (stumbled into) formula of "great director, solid actors, and great writing" has become formulaic and over controlled with writing and directing becoming greatly deemphasized over a "winning" pattern and certain ideological concerns.

 

Also analogized to the comics.  Back in the mid-80's, the Flash, a stable DC character, was in a massive sales slump, to the point of cancellation.  Mark Waid had some ideas for Wally West struggling with a legacy mantle, so Crisis killed off Barry Allen and built in Wally's need to take on that legacy, and Waid started the rebooted Flash.  It was different, innovative, and it sold massively well.  Waid was quoted years later that no one could do that now.   [EDIT:  Mike Baron wrote the rebooot.  Mark Waid took over in 1992.  The book must not have been selling then, as I am sure the statements on not being able to take risks on a big seller were Mark Waid's.]

 

Why?

 

When he did it, no one was buying Flash anyway, so there was no real risk if his vision cratered and the book was cancelled.  But now it's a hot seller, so the organization doesn't want to take risks on it.  It's a vision of its own success.

 

We weren't getting Supers films often in the 1990's and what we got was often disappointing and bore little resemblance to the source material. 

 

Why? 

 

Because what had been done hadn't sold well, so studios weren't excited to risk another expensive bomb.  But then Iron Man did fairly well, enough to justify a few more risks.  And Avengers blew the doors off.

 

WOW - Supers sell!

 

So we got studios excited about making Supers movies - and now that we have demand, it's not just the best one that gets picked for production.  And we know Avengers sold, so we want this one to be "the next Avengers" and also sell.  Here, let us help you modify your vision to better align with what we think caused Avengers to sell!

 

Honestly, when I watched the first Iron Man, it felt more like Robocop than a comic book.  Hulk felt more like the TV show, and Abomination was not too faithful to its source character.  Thor - Asgard = SuperScience now, and we didn't get very much of actual Thor, did we? Iron Man 2?  Less said, the better. Captain America was more faithful to the character, at least. Avengers portrayed actual Super Heroes, not dropping their powers to more "believable" levels.  Great, we proved the source material can sell.

 

So a few B-Listers get pulled off the shelf, as we've used up most of our licensed A-listers (actuallly, drop those to C's and B's - the A's like Spidey and X-Men were licensed elsewhere).

 

Oh, Guardians of the Galaxy sold and it used humour.  Add humour - make it off the wall and don't worry about the source material for these characters not being off the wall and funny. And make it more like Avengers.  And make more Superhero movies and make them faster - hire some more directors and writers.

 

So we get way more material, considerably more studio interference and a decline in average quality.  Wow - just like superhero comics!

[csyphrett]

Mark Waid didn't replace Barry Allen with Wally West. Mike Baron did. Mark Waid brought Barry Allen back.

CES

[DShomshak]

I finally noticed Shang-Chi and Eternals on the shelf at my local library, so I finally saw them. Shang-Chi was okay but seemed very checklisty. Threat to the world. check. Cameo advertising another part of the MCU, check. Funny sidekick, check. Daddy issue, double check with underlining.

 

I found Eternals rougher but a bit more interesting due to the conflict among the characters, and because it gave a significant expansion to the MCU. Huh, so the Celestials have sort of been merged with Galactus. OK I guess that Eternals and Deviants have been made something completely different from the comic book originals. One point of "Boy, they're stupid": After Sersi gets her infodump from Arishem about how Celestials are born but they're necessary to preserve life in the Universe, nobody says, "And of course we believe the guy who just told you our whole lives are a lie?"

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Honestly, when I watched the first Iron Man, it felt more like Robocop than a comic book.  Hulk felt more like the TV show, and Abomination was not too faithful to its source character.  Thor - Asgard = SuperScience now, and we didn't get very much of actual Thor, did we?

 

Yeah that is a consistent complaint I have.  They aren't really doing superhero movies so much as action movies with vague costumes and super powers.  Was Captain America a good movie?  Sure.  But was it a superhero movie?  It was a spy thriller with Jason Bourne-James Bond type characters who wore kinda-costumes.

 

But even with that, the quality has... suffered over the years.  And I really liked Ant-Man and Iron Man 2 for exactly that reason: they felt more like superhero movies.  Like comic books.

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, csyphrett said:

Mark Waid didn't replace Barry Allen with Wally West. Mike Baron did. Mark Waid brought Barry Allen back.

 

I misrecalled the startup - edited. Mark Waid took over in 1992.  I'm certain the interview quote was his.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Yeah that is a consistent complaint I have.  They aren't really doing superhero movies so much as action movies with vague costumes and super powers.  Was Captain America a good movie?  Sure.  But was it a superhero movie?  It was a spy thriller with Jason Bourne-James Bond type characters who wore kinda-costumes.

 

But even with that, the quality has... suffered over the years.  And I really liked Ant-Man and Iron Man 2 for exactly that reason: they felt more like superhero movies.  Like comic books.

 

There was an interview with filmmakers who noted that comic book Supers cover all genres, so Cap could be a WWII movie, then a Bourne spy thriller in his first two movies.  I was not overly impressed with IM II (in part because their Whiplash did not resonate with me), while both Cap films felt like they could have been comic books.

Ant-man was a heist flick, but definitely a heist that could have been a comic book - the Scott Lang Ant-Man was never overly serious, so dropping humour in there worked well.

[csyphrett]

18 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I misrecalled the startup - edited. Mark Waid took over in 1992.  I'm certain the interview quote was his.

 

 

 

I don't think Baron was on the book for long. His Wally was a little jerky at times. He did give us Vandal Savage as a Flash foe, the Russian carrier speedsters, brought back Magenta, and some others. Messner Loebs started Wally in therapy and some other things. Waid intro'd the Speed Force and hooked all the speedsters together, and brought back Barry, created Impulse. Editorial dumped on Wally for a while until Heroes in Crisis where he kills some people and covers it up.  I don't know what he is doing now

CES   

[Scott Ruggels]

4 minutes ago, csyphrett said:

I don't think Baron was on the book for long. His Wally was a little jerky at times. He did give us Vandal Savage as a Flash foe, the Russian carrier speedsters, brought back Magenta, and some others. Messner Loebs started Wally in therapy and some other things. Waid intro'd the Speed Force and hooked all the speedsters together, and brought back Barry, created Impulse. Editorial dumped on Wally for a while until Heroes in Crisis where he kills some people and covers it up.  I don't know what he is doing now

CES   

Isn't The Flash a DC property? 

[csyphrett]

26 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Isn't The Flash a DC property? 

You got me there, Scott. I admit I have only seen like five MCU movies and am just coasting on the osmosis here with the other old people like you.

CVES  

[Scott Ruggels]

IMO, Avengers: Infinity War was the High point of the MCU, with  Avengers: End Game a close second. Since then, I've felt that  the quality has declined precipitously, with most of the plots degenerate to some version of "The girl that is the key to everything". I am even less interested in the video representations of the "All New All Different Marvel", from 2015 or so. I wanted stories about the Marquee characters being heroes, rather than Sidekicks in their own stories, shown up by a more skilled or more powerful woman. For properties supposedly picked up by Disney to attract a male audience, when they already locked down the female audience with the princesses, and the cable shows,   Hawkeye was the one that didn't hurt so bad, but, Moon Night....   Another subtle yet glaring problem, is that Male Heroes cannot hit female characters, and the fights, in general, are Bloodless. The perfection of the first two seasons of Neflix's  Daredevil I don't see being able to get duplicated in any current MCU Property. Disney's influence is pervasive, and I am very close to walking away from the MCU, as I have completely from Star Wars. Cancelling Disney+ and picking up HULU to watch "The Orville" , or Paramount+ to get South Park, or Beavis & Butthead 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

There was an interview with filmmakers who noted that comic book Supers cover all genres, so Cap could be a WWII movie, then a Bourne spy thriller in his first two movies. 

 

There is something to that, but they seem extremely reluctant to do Superhero stories.  I mean its like doing a Jane Austen universe series of movies without any dinner parties or fancy dress.

 

If you read the best stories of the last 75 years or so of superhero comic books they cover a HUGE range of different genres and styles but were always in the superhero genre.  And that's the part that is missing.  When the Fantastic Four went back in time and met pirates, this was still superhero stuff.

[Bazza]

The crazy multiverse shot in ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ had its own intense VFX journey

https://beforesandafters.com/2022/06/14/the-crazy-multiverse-shot-in-doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-had-its-own-intense-vfx-journey/

[Ternaugh]

3 hours ago, Bazza said:

The crazy multiverse shot in ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ had its own intense VFX journey

https://beforesandafters.com/2022/06/14/the-crazy-multiverse-shot-in-doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-had-its-own-intense-vfx-journey/

 

Nobody watches old movies anymore. 

 

Quote

The point is, we were designing previs for a while, going through these ‘worlds’ in slow-mo and then we received a note from Marvel saying, ‘It’s a bit deja vu, let’s do something else.’ And I’m not sure where it came from, but there was a reference from a movie where a guy is in front of a window of a store and you see the different seasons and you see the mannequins in the store changing clothes, changing very quickly, and you see the same store changing through the window.

 

https://www.tcm.com/video/473747/time-machine-the-1960-the-years-rolled-by/

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

There is something to that, but they seem extremely reluctant to do Superhero stories.  I mean its like doing a Jane Austen universe series of movies without any dinner parties or fancy dress.

 

If you read the best stories of the last 75 years or so of superhero comic books they cover a HUGE range of different genres and styles but were always in the superhero genre.  And that's the part that is missing.  When the Fantastic Four went back in time and met pirates, this was still superhero stuff.

 

As I said, I did not find the two Cap movies anything that would not have fit within the comics.  The first still had a bit of that "we don't want it to be too "Super" feel, but it was definitely fading and Cap's not as "over the top Super" as Thor, Hulk or Iron Man.

[Bazza]

Iron Man 2 is arguably the most quintessential Iron Man film out of the three. It is like they took the tropes of the comic and put them all into one film. We have:

• Tony's alcoholism 
• Tony acting as a playboy
• A Russian baddie 
• One of Tony's rogues gallery (Whiplash)
• War Machine
• A business-industrial rival (who resorts to espionage)
• SUITCASE ARMOUR 

Ergo, this might me what Christopher R Taylor as suggesting.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Meanwhile Iron Man 3 felt least like a comic book of the IM movies, and more like "hey, we have this old script lying around for a sci fi movie, lets use it!

[Bazza]

I still like it more than some MCU films.