Marvel Cinematic Universe, Phase Three and BEYOOOOONND

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah like the comics, the study of magic and learning that there is much, much more to reality than himself has changed Stephen Strange.  It wasn't handled as well as it could be, but it makes sense.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Bazza said:

Bro Thor...was stupid. 

 

2 hours ago, zslane said:

I completely understand where you're coming from, Bazza.

 

Sure, as just about anyone would, I like a bit of humor in my action movies. It helps keep them from becoming too grim. But when the humor strays into the realm of parody, I start to lose interest (and respect, for the characters). It's why I never warmed up to Venture Brothers, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, and am struggling a little with the new Harley Quinn cartoon. Fat Thor felt more like parody to me than simple humor.

 

To be clear, Thor is my favorite comic-book superhero, and I absolutely hate the direction Marvel Studios took him. But from the perspective of trying to sell entertainment to an audience, I can't fault their decision. MCU Thor had become static, not growing as a character, and was among the less popular MCU heroes. Chris Hemsworth is a very talented comic actor, so using that talent to add to Thor's appeal made sense. With Thor: Ragnarok and Avengers: Infinity War they essentially turned Thor into Marvel Comics' Hercules, a lovable goof who also happens to be an awesome badass. The response of moviegoers -- as opposed to longtime comics fans -- to that change was strongly positive.

 

In Avengers: Endgame they turned Thor full-on Volstagg (comic version). That actually was similar to a development from the run of Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy comic -- the 31st Century version, I mean. And as much as I loathed seeing him like that, as part of MCU Thor's character arc it made sense. Over the course of the MCU's rollout Thor lost everything. He lost his lover. He lost his whole family. He lost all his closest friends. He lost his home. He lost the weapon that was like part of him. He failed to protect his people, and lost half of them. Through all of that he kept moving forward, refusing to give up. What finally broke him was what he saw as his failure to save half the people in the Universe.

 

Anyone with experience of depression and/or PTSD can grasp how Thor became what he is in Endgame. But in the end he found the help he needed to be a hero again, and that is an inspiring development. (Too little too late for my liking, but still.)

[archer]

33 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

 

To be clear, Thor is my favorite comic-book superhero, and I absolutely hate the direction Marvel Studios took him. But from the perspective of trying to sell entertainment to an audience, I can't fault their decision. MCU Thor had become static, not growing as a character, and was among the less popular MCU heroes. Chris Hemsworth is a very talented comic actor, so using that talent to add to Thor's appeal made sense. With Thor: Ragnarok and Avengers: Infinity War they essentially turned Thor into Marvel Comics' Hercules, a lovable goof who also happens to be an awesome badass. The response of moviegoers -- as opposed to longtime comics fans -- to that change was strongly positive.

 

In Avengers: Endgame they turned Thor full-on Volstagg (comic version). That actually was similar to a development from the run of Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy comic -- the 31st Century version, I mean. And as much as I loathed seeing him like that, as part of MCU Thor's character arc it made sense. Over the course of the MCU's rollout Thor lost everything. He lost his lover. He lost his whole family. He lost all his closest friends. He lost his home. He lost the weapon that was like part of him. He failed to protect his people, and lost half of them. Through all of that he kept moving forward, refusing to give up. What finally broke him was what he saw as his failure to save half the people in the Universe.

 

Anyone with experience of depression and/or PTSD can grasp how Thor became what he is in Endgame. But in the end he found the help he needed to be a hero again, and that is an inspiring development. (Too little too late for my liking, but still.)

 

I think there was a different way they could have gone to shake up the character if they thought his appeal was growing stale.

 

Just look at what happened in the comics when the Watcher whispered to him just exactly how he was unworthy.

 

Thor got to go through the whole redemption arc without all the fat jokes.

[zslane]

I agree 100% with archer here. You don't have to make a mockery of the Thor character in order to put him through another redemption arc. I know that the lighter, more humorous tone of Thor: Ragnorak was well-received, but if "Fat Thor would be great!" was what Feige took away from that, then I think it's one of those rare cases where he simply got it wrong. Listening to your audience is a good thing; pandering to the Big Lebowski fans among them is...IMO...not.

[Greywind]

If you recall, in Ragnarok Thor saved his people but lost Asgard. Odin told him Asgard was the people. He was settling into the role of being their leader when Thanos came along and killed who knows how many Asgardians. Before Thanos ever snapped his fingers. Going into Infinity War, Thor was already damaged by that loss.

[Lord Liaden]

Yes, plus every other loss I listed, before the snap. It's really a testament to Thor's character that he hadn't already been overwhelmed by grief.

 

They might have gone another route to his redemption, and I selfishly wish they had, but I'm not sure what that could have been. The movies had already used depowering him. Story-wise I think "fat Thor" was a fair choice, in that whatever else was taken from him, Thor remained this physically perfect, godlike man. Stripping him of that -- or more accurately, burying it under fat -- was the final step in stripping away who he had been. From there the only directions, dramatically, were death or renewal.

[Matt the Bruins]

And in that movie it was pretty clear from Thor's speech to Rocket that he was hanging on by a thread and pinning all his hopes on stopping Thanos or dying in the attempt. When neither happened, and killing Thanos after the fact proved a hollow victory, he fell apart.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, archer said:

 

Just look at what happened in the comics when the Watcher whispered to him just exactly how he was unworthy.

 

 

I'll just start ranting if I broach the whole subject of the "Original Sin" storyline.

[Greywind]

1 hour ago, archer said:

Just look at what happened in the comics when the Watcher whispered to him just exactly how he was unworthy.

 

I thought that was Fury.

[Lord Liaden]

Fury using the Watcher's all-seeing eyes (don't rant don't rant don't rant...)

[Starlord]

I LOVE Thor.  Particularly Shakespearean serious Thor.

 

However, given EVERYTHING he has gone through in the MCU, I am still ok with with his overall character arc and how he has character has transformed.  He leaned heavily into the ridiculous in Thor: Ragnarok but I think he still came out ok.  I say 'THEE NAY' to all those who disapprove.

[Lord Liaden]

With Infinity War I thought they struck a solid, acceptable balance between the comical and the dramatic in Thor. What they did with him in Endgame was one big factor in my not wanting to watch that movie a second time. I had to rewatch some Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes to wash out the taste of that.

[Ninja-Bear]

If I recall correctly, I read somewhere where Chris Hemsworth wasn’t feeling the classic Thor anymore.  This is one reason why you see Thor in Ragnorok as you do. He asked if his hair could be cut.  My boys and I liked Thor 3. It was a fun movie.

[dmjalund]

14 hours ago, Starlord said:

Is Baby Yoda in it?

not yet, but Wanda IS pregnant

[Starlord]

Saw Wandavision, it was ok  I like that Marvel is willing to take risks.

[Grailknight]

8 hours ago, dmjalund said:

not yet, but Wanda IS pregnant

 

I wish with all my heart that that they don't dredge up that storyline. but given the tones of WandaVision and the hints that she will be a villain in a future film, I think train is going to crash into another on a bridge over an erupting volcano.

[unclevlad]

I am very much on board with Thor reeling from the impacts of his choices, grief, and the sense of failure.  I can also buy that Fat Thor was taking an easy road and turned tragedy dangerously close (at least) to farce.

[zslane]

19 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

but I'm not sure what that could have been.

 

LL, I know you have a highly functioning imagination and a prodigious intellect to go with it, which is why I am surprised you gave up so easily there. Farcical behavior is but one reaction to profound loss, and I'd argue it is the least dramatically compelling--in the context of cinema--because it undercuts the tragedy/suffering with persistent bathos.

[Spence]

For me "Drunk Hiding in His Cup" Thor wasn't a bad storyline especially after all that had happened.

The added "Fat" portion was meh.  

[Greywind]

The "Fat" portion was Thor wallowing in his cups and not exercising. No trolls to slay. No Frost Giants. No Dark Elves. So he got fat.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I enjoyed the first two episodes of Wandavision. It's a slow burn, but it teases just enough to have you wanting more. There's heavy hints at "devilish" involvement, but that could possibly be a red herring.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, zslane said:

 

LL, I know you have a highly functioning imagination and a prodigious intellect to go with it, which is why I am surprised you gave up so easily there. Farcical behavior is but one reaction to profound loss, and I'd argue it is the least dramatically compelling--in the context of cinema--because it undercuts the tragedy/suffering with persistent bathos.

 

First, implied compliment gratefully accepted. 😊

 

Second, just to reiterate, I really didn't like that they took Thor in the direction of profound depression, with its attendant consequences. But since they did, drama, in practical terms, weighs in favor of them adding the comical elements. Depressed Thor, with or without the fat, would be a figure of pity without some comic relief, which would be likely to have depressed and distressed the audience. Being able to laugh at something inherently makes it easier to bear. Lord knows there's more than enough downer in Endgame. Thor the buffoon greatly annoyed me, but whiny Thor would have been even worse.

 

Moreover, when you look at the movie as a whole, the other Avengers pretty much cover the rest of the spectrum for how people cope with grief and loss. Natasha throws herself into her work of leading the remaining Avengers. Clint turns his rage and pain outward, trying to exhaust it in violence. Steve renounces fighting altogether, focusing on helping others come to terms with their own losses. Bruce gains incentive to resolve his long-standing issues and find peace within himself. Tony withdraws altogether to create a safe little bubble for himself and his family. Rocket uses sarcasm to mask the loss of the only people he considered family.

[zslane]

Thor could have spent his days building an Asgardian-style "fortress of solitude" for himself somewhere in Scandanavia. I would have preferred a Thor single-mindedly obsessed with building some giant structure in homage to his lost people and lost realm than a Thor wallowing in pity and serving as the focal point for farce.

[Lord Liaden]

And it's perfectly fair to prefer that. I'm with you, too. But I have to point out that what you just described is fundamentally, variations on what Tony and Nat are doing in the movie -- isolation and obsession.

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I enjoyed the first two episodes of Wandavision. It's a slow burn, but it teases just enough to have you wanting more. There's heavy hints at "devilish" involvement, but that could possibly be a red herring.

 

I found I was watching it more because I knew there must be something more going on than for the half hour sitcom.  I think this could easily get annoying if drawn out too far, but even the second episode threw in

Spoiler

those "a flash of colour" scenes, and the shift to colour at the very end of the second episode.

 

So I'll give it a bit more time to develop.  Besides, my 18 yo son is very excited by the show, starting with the closing of the first episode.  Even if it turns out pretty flat, I've wasted time watching worse TV.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

First, implied compliment gratefully accepted. 😊

 

Second, just to reiterate, I really didn't like that they took Thor in the direction of profound depression, with its attendant consequences. But since they did, drama, in practical terms, weighs in favor of them adding the comical elements. Depressed Thor, with or without the fat, would be a figure of pity without some comic relief, which would be likely to have depressed and distressed the audience. Being able to laugh at something inherently makes it easier to bear. Lord knows there's more than enough downer in Endgame. Thor the buffoon greatly annoyed me, but whiny Thor would have been even worse.

 

Moreover, when you look at the movie as a whole, the other Avengers pretty much cover the rest of the spectrum for how people cope with grief and loss. Natasha throws herself into her work of leading the remaining Avengers. Clint turns his rage and pain outward, trying to exhaust it in violence. Steve renounces fighting altogether, focusing on helping others come to terms with their own losses. Bruce gains incentive to resolve his long-standing issues and find peace within himself. Tony withdraws altogether to create a safe little bubble for himself and his family. Rocket uses sarcasm to mask the loss of the only people he considered family.

 

While I was not a big fan of "fat Thor", I really liked the chat with his mother, particularly when he moved to the lowest point of his self-pity and held out his hand for the Mjolnir he knew would not respond because he was no longer worthy, so he could say "See, Mom - I am an irredeemable failure".  And the clear, speechless shock when Mjolnir landed in his hand.