Bazza Posted January 8, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Probably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 I would remind the thread that only a Sith deals in absolutes... Oh wait, got my Disney products mixed up. Hakuna matata. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 I think I'd have put Eternity and Death in a tie for the #3 spot on that cosmic list. And there are a LOT of mystical beings more powerful than Dormammu, he's just prominent because he's Strange's archenemy. Pretty much every major demon lord and pagan death god/adversary figure works on about the same level, and Set, Chthon, Gaea, the Vishanti, and Shuma-Gorath have been established as being far more powerful. Bazza 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 'Magic' merely seems to be - the knowledge and skill to manipulate cosmic energy beyond the understanding of the universe's normal population. Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 What constitutes "the universe's normal population"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Everyone but us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 I think the jury is still out as to what magic means in the MCU. But it sure seems to follow Clarke's Law (and nothing more), because all we've seen so far is stuff that is "sufficiently advanced" to appear as magic to us (21st century humans). There is the possibility that tapping into the energies (and mechanisms?) of alternate dimensions allows violating the physical laws of our own (the Infinity Stones seem to possibly point in that direction), but we're only left with vague implications in this direction, and nothing truly concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Walsh Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 If they explained it all sufficiently, then it would cease to be magic. So leaving it vague is the only way there can be magic in the MCU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 If they explained it all sufficiently, then it would cease to be magic. So leaving it vague is the only way there can be magic in the MCU. Not to mention how difficult it is to explain something that doesn't actually exist. At best, since NO EXPLANATION will ever be sufficient for everyone, leaving it vague is the only obvious choice. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 What constitutes "the universe's normal population"? Does it matter? Clearly, there are special individuals in the MCU. The MCU is not our universe, it obviously does not have the same laws of physics as our own. Applying the workings of our reality wouldn't make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 After seeing Dr. Strange one more time, it doesn't really seem like general magic is that wonderful. I felt like the after credits scene with Mordo could've gone something like - Mordo - The world has TOO MANY SORCERERS! The Punisher steps onscreen and hands Mordo a Glock 21 pistol. Mordo gives him a quizzical look. Punisher - You wanna get rid of the sorcerers, right? I've seen them fight...this should be all you need. Seriously. Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iuz the Evil Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 Mordo waits until Punisher leaves and turns him into a collectable statuette using the handwavium he has in his pocket and the Emerald Enchantment of Editorial Fiat, which can only be broken by a Netflix original series contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 If they explained it all sufficiently, then it would cease to be magic. So leaving it vague is the only way there can be magic in the MCU. Huh? Can't tell if serious... Explaining it (unambiguously) to the audience does not make it "no longer magic" within the diagesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Applying the workings of our reality wouldn't make any sense. Applying the workings of our own reality don't even make sense when applied to our own reality. DasBroot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Walsh Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Huh? Can't tell if serious... Explaining it (unambiguously) to the audience does not make it "no longer magic" within the diagesis. In the real world, any advanced technology that seemed like magic to us would, once sufficiently explained, no longer seem like magic. And since anything identified as "magic" would have to work in some way, there's a point at which the explanation of it would tilt over into science and make it no longer magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Yeah, to some extent the word magic is just shorthand for "we don't understand how it works." Reminds me of Tim Minchin's quote about alternative medicine: "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine." But that's in our world... Other differences between (fictional) magic and (fictional) science, some of which are more meaningful/useful than others: Anyone can use science (or at least gadgets created by it); only certain people are born with innate magical talent (in some worlds) Science uses commonly-accessible forces (whatever that means); magic taps into extradimensional forces that can't normally be accessed. Science uses natural forces with/against one another' magic uses one's individual will to bend natural forces. Magic is ancient; science is modern. Science is consistently replicable; magic is unpredictable. (Tho a lot of super-tech seems to violate this principle...) Science involves math and equations; magic involves learning ancient texts, speaking obscure phrases, and wiggling your fingers just so. Pick one from Column A, two from Column B... Christopher R Taylor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 "Through the mystic arts we harness energy and shape reality." That's enough explanation for me. Joe Walsh, massey, bigdamnhero and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Yeah magic doesn't have to mean "we don't know how it works" (basically the Asgard explanation) but rather arcane manipulation of reality through extrascientific means. Like the Ancient One points out in Dr Strange: the world consists of much more than what you can measure and understand with science, doctor. Burrito Boy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Applying the workings of our own reality don't even make sense when applied to our own reality. Indeed. Considering how much of our current model basically says 'x exists because y would make no sense if it didn't' I feel they have some wiggle room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Witnessing (or producing) a phenomenon that seems like magic is not the same as witnessing (or producing) a phenomenon that is magic. Just because a mirage seems like a body of water doesn't actually make it one. The manner in which Galactus can turn a living being into one of his heralds doesn't "make sense" to anyone on Earth, but it is not regarded as magic by Marvel (nor by Galactus himself). Even Reed Richards would simply invoke handwavium and say that Galactus is "using the power cosmic" to alter the molecular structure of things; but will say nothing at all as to how that actually works. Reed doesn't know (because, well, the writers don't know), he only knows that it happens and that it is (somehow) an accessible mechanism of "the cosmos". It is quite likely that there is no such thing as magic in the MCU, and that everything that can and does happen is a fundamental cosmic process/mechanism accessible to anyone who knows how. In that case, things only ever seem like magic (in that Clarke-ian way), but nothing ever actually is. On the other hand, if there truly are forces or processes that can be accessed (maybe from other realities) that defy understanding, even by beings such as the Living Tribunal, then maybe there really is magic in the MCU. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Yeah magic doesn't have to mean "we don't know how it works" (basically the Asgard explanation) but rather arcane manipulation of reality through extrascientific means. Like the Ancient One points out in Dr Strange: the world consists of much more than what you can measure and understand with science, doctor. I'd prefer it if this were modified to say that there are things science doesn't understand yet. There's enough room in theories of dark matter, chaos theory, and cosmological probability to support a comic book explanation of magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Frankly, every new theory I hear for theoretical physics sounds more and more like magic to me. And not in the Clarkean sense, but in the "cool-sounding gibberish" sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 You can blame the news media for at least some of that. Anything remotely technical is going to get mangled in translation to English by a journalist* on a deadline. Science, aviation, IT, military, medical studies, firearms, all routinely misreported. * And even these are an endangered species compared to bloggers or random bloviators on the Internet. bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted January 9, 2017 Report Share Posted January 9, 2017 Yeah magic doesn't have to mean "we don't know how it works" (basically the Asgard explanation) but rather arcane manipulation of reality... Yes but "arcane" just means "mysterious or secret, understood by only a few." In other words it says nothing at all about how the manipulation of reality works, just how widely understood it is. ...through extrascientific means. Like the Ancient One points out in Dr Strange: the world consists of much more than what you can measure and understand with science, doctor. And "extra-scientific" is another one of those meaningless phrases that really means "we don't understand how it works and we can't replicate it." Science is just a methodology for observing and testing how things work: if you test it under controlled conditions and get consistent results, then congratulations it's scientific, even if we don't (yet) understand why. (If you can't get consistent results, well, see above quote re alternative medicine...) My point is that in any universe where magic actually exists, the distinction between magic and science quickly becomes a subjective one that mainly boils down to "looks like something a wizard would do" vs "acts like something technological." And from a narrative perspective I'm fine with that, but best not to over-think it IMO. Frankly, every new theory I hear for theoretical physics sounds more and more like magic to me. And not in the Clarkean sense, but in the "cool-sounding gibberish" sense. Yeah, a lot of stuff on the edge seems to almost border on postmodernist nonsense to me. But then, I'm a history major. Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 My point is that in any universe where magic actually exists, the distinction between magic and science quickly becomes a subjective one that mainly boils down to "looks like something a wizard would do" vs "acts like something technological." And from a narrative perspective I'm fine with that, but best not to over-think it IMO. On a completely practical level, I think you're right. If it seems like magic to our pop culture sensibilties, then that's what we tend to call it, precise definitions be damned. I guess in a sense it's like a Champions campaign where something is magic simply by virtue of having "magic" written down as its special effect. After all, I'm sure no GM has ever run into the issue of having to more clearly define the scope/limits of magic in their campaign, right? bigdamnhero 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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