DJWebb2 Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 ALCON, I don't have my Big Blue any more - but if I recall correctly aren't Crusader and Starburst in the back as example MA & EB? If so does anyone have a copy of mechanics or 6e conversions for them? I know - why bother right? I'm just going through an old school plot I was in way back in the day and I wanted to include these two. Any and all help would be appreciated. Thanks, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'll get them built here in a bit just out of nostalgia. OK first, Crusader. He's a bit of a nut job, almost crazed. I toned down his "berserk" into an enraged, so he's not so unstable but he's still a bit unhinged. His stats are really gaudy because that was kind of common back in 4th edition, but I kept him as exact as I could. Plus, since Find Weakness and Missile Deflection went bye-bye, I had to build equivalents of both effects for 6th edition Crusader Val Char Cost 20 STR 10 Lift: 800kg Damage: 4d6 28 DEX 36 20 CON 10 12 BOD 2 18 INT 8 Perception Roll: 13- 11 EGO 1 18 PRE 8 Presence Attack: 3 1/2d6 15 PD 13 With Shield Deflect: 20 PD; 5 rPD 11 ED 9 With Shield Deflect: 16 ED; 5 rED 6 SPD 40 12 REC 8 40 END 4 33 STN 7 14m RUN 2 4m SWIM 0 8m LEAP 2 Characteristics Cost: 226 Cost Power 4 Shield: Resistant Protection (5 PD/5 ED) (15 Active Points); OAF (Shield; -1), Requires A Roll (Block roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Only vs attacks Crusader is aware of (-1/2) 7 Glider Cape: Flight 18m (18 Active Points); Gliding (-1), OIF (Costume; -1/2) 4 Find Weakness: Armor Piercing on Punch Martial Art (7 Active Points); Requires A Roll (12- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -3/4) Powers Cost: 15 Cost Martial Arts Maneuver 4 Chop: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, HKA 2d6 4 Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 30 STR to Disarm 5 Kick: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, 8d6 Strike 4 Punch: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, 6d6 Strike Martial Arts Cost: 17 Cost Skill 3 Acrobatics 15- 3 Breakfall 15- 24 +3 with HTH Combat 6 +3 with block maneuvers using shield 3 Criminology 13- 3 Deduction 13- 2 KS: Organized Crime 11- 3 CK: Home City 12- 3 Shadowing 13- 3 Stealth 15- 3 Streetwise 13- Skills Cost: 56 Cost Talent 3 +1/+1d6 Striking Appearance (vs. all characters) Talents Cost: 3 Total Character Cost: 317 Pts. Complication 20 Dependent NPC: Sally Robinson - girlfriend Frequently (Incompetent; Useful Noncombat Position or Skills; Unaware of character's adventuring career/Secret ID) 20 Enraged: If people killed (Uncommon), go 14-, recover 11- 15 Hunted: CIA Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; Mildly Punish) 20 Hunted: Viper Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; Harshly Punish) 10 Negative Reputation: Vigilante, Frequently 20 Psychological Complication: Code vs Killing (Common; Total) 15 Psychological Complication: Distrust of Authorities (Common; Strong) 15 Psychological Complication: Hatred of Killing Attacks (Common; Strong) 10 Psychological Complication: Hatred of Criminals (Uncommon; Strong) 15 Social Complication: Secret Identity Frequently, Major Complication Points: 160 And of course the HD file Crusader.hdc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 And Starburst. A little quicker and easier build, although his vulnerabilities make him basically toast in any street fight. Certainly not a build I'd do. Nothing tricky about his abilities, except his Force Field. Because of the active cost I had to slash his FF down from 25/25 to 15/17 to fit it in the Multipower, then put a non-multipower forcefield outside it that's linked to the one inside. Yes, its cheezy and I'd never allow it with my campaign, but it gave him the full defenses he's supposed to have, and it also gives him the advantage of having some decent defenses without the FF on full power in his multipower. Plus, I had to muddle about with his Reputations. In the 4th edition build he had an 11- reputation "superhero" which is neither negative or really significant. So I played on his publicity seeking by giving him a positive rep so people would point and cry out his name (as a result of his efforts to be known) and media would scoff at him for being such a camera hound. Again, a bit gaudy in the stats, as was the norm back then. Starburst Val Char Cost 15 STR 5 Weight: 200kg Damage: 3d6 23 DEX 26 25 CON 15 10 BOD 0 10 INT 0 Perception Roll: 11- 11 EGO 1 15 PRE 5 Presence Attack: 3d6 10 PD 8 With Force Field: 35 PD; 25 rPD 15 ED 13 With Force Field: 40 ED; 25 rED 5 SPD 30 9 REC 5 60 END 8 31 STN 6 12m RUN 0 4m SWIM 0 6m LEAP 1 Characteristics Cost: 166 Cost Power 5 Star Sight: Infrared Perception (Sight Group) 6 Star Vision: +4 versus Range Modifier for Sight Group 50 Starburst Powers: Multipower, 50-point reserve 10v 1) Star Blast: Blast 10d6 (50 Active Points) 6v 2) Star Field: Resistant Protection (15 PD/17 ED) (48 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) 10v 3) Star Soaring: Flight 40m, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (50 Active Points) 13 Star Burst: Sight Group Flash 4d6 (20 Active Points); Linked (Star Blast; -1/2) 13 Force Field: Resistant Protection (10 PD/8 ED) (27 Active Points); Linked (Star Field; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4) Powers Cost: 113 Cost Skill 2 +1 OCV with Energy Blast 3 Computer Programming 11- 3 Scientist 1 1) Science Skill: Computer Science 11- (2 Active Points) 1 2) Science Skill: Mathematics 11- (2 Active Points) 1 3) Science Skill: Nuclear Physics 11- (2 Active Points) 1 4) Science Skill: Physics 11- (2 Active Points) Skills Cost: 12 Cost Perk 2 Positive Reputation: Famous Superhero (A large group) 11-, +1/+1d6 Perks Cost: 2 Total Character Cost: 293 Pts. Complication 10 Hunted: Pulsar Infrequently (As Pow; Harshly Punish) 5 Negative Reputation: Publicity Hound, Frequently (Known Only To A Small Group - reporters and media) 15 Psychological Complication: Publicity Seeker, lives on media attention (Common; Strong) 10 Psychological Complication: Underconfident, insecury (Common; Moderate) 15 Psychological Complication: Scientific Curiosity (Common; Strong) 5 Rivalry: Professional (Co-Worker; Rival is As Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry) 15 Social Complication: Secret Identity Frequently, Major 25 Susceptibility: Darkness Fields 3d6 damage per Phase (Uncommon) 20 Vulnerability: 2 x STUN HKAs (Common) 20 Vulnerability: 2 x BODY HKAs (Common) 10 Vulnerability: 2 x STUN Darkness Attacks (Uncommon) Complication Points: 150 and of course the HD file again Starburst.hdc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 23, 2014 Report Share Posted October 23, 2014 Armor Piercing isn't quite the same as Find Weakness since it can't be used repeatedly to cumulatively halve a target's defenses. Why was FW removed from the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Armor Piercing isn't quite the same as Find Weakness since it can't be used repeatedly to cumulatively halve a target's defenses. Why was FW removed from the game? AP with an analyze roll is the sample power build for "Find Weakness." (CC 210) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yeah I gave it the 12- activation roll because that was Crusader's Find Weakness roll in the Big Blue Book. I think they pulled Find Weakness because it was infinite, you could in theory reduce everyone's defenses to 1 (or 0, depending on how your GM treats fractions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 As I GM, I capped it so that Find Weakness only worked once, to halve the applicable defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I'll get them built here in a bit just out of nostalgia.His stats are really gaudy because that was kind of common back in 4th edition, but I kept him as exact as I could. Crusader Again, a bit gaudy in the stats, as was the norm back then. Starburst First, Good Job on the conversions and coloring the pics. Second, what do you mean by their stats are "gaudy?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 First, Good Job on the conversions and coloring the pics. Second, what do you mean by their stats are "gaudy?" Earlier editions had a tendency to give characters superhuman or near-superhuman characteristics when there was no real reason for them and they didn't fit the origin or character concept. Rainbow Archer, anyone? For those not familiar with her, she was essentially a villainous Green Arrow. She was a normal human with a bow and trick arrows...and a 35 DEX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Earlier editions had a tendency to give characters superhuman or near-superhuman characteristics when there was no real reason for them and they didn't fit the origin or character concept. Rainbow Archer, anyone? For those not familiar with her, she was essentially a villainous Green Arrow. She was a normal human with a bow and trick arrows...and a 35 DEX. Thank You for the explanation. To be fair, it kinda-sorta made sense back in those days before skill levels and damage classes, when Martial Arts cost as much as your Strength and only allowed you to do extra damage. Players wanted their characters to be able to put down a street-level thug before he had a chance to blurt out "Wait! I surrender!" Can't really do that with an OCV of 5 or 6. Not really defending the practice, but I can understand why it happened. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 A lot of it had to do with figured characteristics too. Starburst has 25 Con, Crusader 28 DEX. That was done because those stats gave you lots of bonuses more than character design or logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Armor Piercing isn't quite the same as Find Weakness since it can't be used repeatedly to cumulatively halve a target's defenses. Why was FW removed from the game? Presumably because it could be and was used repeatedly to reduce the target's defense to ⅛ what it would be normally (or lower). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Yeah, but there may be character/device concepts for which that is entirely appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 There's the variant Armor Piercing from the Advanced Player's Guide. +1/4 for 1/2 defenses. +3/4 for 1/4. +1 1/2 for 1/8. The trick is building it so that it only affects a single target, only applies one level per attempt, and requires a roll for each level. I think I remember DCV bought with Only Against A Single Opponent in one of the books, but I can't remember where. Let's call it -1 for now. Let's see... Find Weakness I: Armor Piercing (+1/4) for Martial Punch, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Time Limit (1 Battle; +3/4) (16 Active Points); Only Against A Single Target (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), Extra Time (Half Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4). Total cost 6 points. plus Find Weakness II: Armor Piercing (1/4 Defenses) (+1/2) for Martial Punch, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Time Limit (1 Battle; +3/4) (34 Active Points); Only Against A Single Target (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), Only Against Target Affected By Find Weakness I (-1/2), Extra Time (Half Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4). Total cost: 10 points. plus Find Weakness III: Armor Piercing (1/8 Defenses) (+3/4) for Martial Punch, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Time Limit (1 Battle; +3/4) (49 Active Points); Only Against A Single Target (-1), Requires A Roll (Skill roll; -1/2), Only Against Target Affected By Find Weakness II (-1/2), Extra Time (Half Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4). Total cost 15 points. Total cost: 31 points. The character spends a Half Phase and makes a Skill roll at -2. If successful, a single target's defenses are halved against one attack for the duration of the battle. A Half Phase and a second Skill roll at -3 quarters the defenses. A Half Phase and another Skill roll at -5 eighths the defenses. This doesn't quite match the Base roll, -2, and -4 of the original Find Weakness. If you change Requires a Skill Roll to -1 per 20 Active Points, the power is 33 points and the rolls are -1, -2, and -2. If a roll fails, it can be retried according to the normal rules for retrying skills, most likely by taking more time, which probably wouldn't be practical in combat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 If a roll fails, it can be retried according to the normal rules for retrying skills, most likely by taking more time, which probably wouldn't be practical in combat. Which is OK, since if you failed your Find Weakness roll you couldn't try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 A lot of it had to do with figured characteristics too. Starburst has 25 Con, Crusader 28 DEX. That was done because those stats gave you lots of bonuses more than character design or logic. As far as I can tell, 3rd ed had the strength chart but no other Iindicators as to where heroic stopped and super characteristics started. 4th brought in from previous sipplements characteristic maxima and its subsequent confusion. Some read maxima (such as I) that that was the ceiling of heroic level/normal human but really Iit only meant that after a certain point you paid double points. It was fifth edition that had a chart that clearly defined normal/super human levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Thank You for the explanation. To be fair, it kinda-sorta made sense back in those days before skill levels and damage classes, when Martial Arts cost as much as your Strength and only allowed you to do extra damage. Players wanted their characters to be able to put down a street-level thug before he had a chance to blurt out "Wait! I surrender!" Can't really do that with an OCV of 5 or 6. Not really defending the practice, but I can understand why it happened. Hope that helps. A lot of it had to do with figured characteristics too. Starburst has 25 Con, Crusader 28 DEX. That was done because those stats gave you lots of bonuses more than character design or logic. To me, a lot of it has to do with the history of Hero System. The very first Champions indicated a normal person had 10's (not 8's) across the board. It then provided "slow" Bricks with an 18 DEX and 4 SPD, agents with 3 SPD and 12-14 DEX, average Supers with 23 DEX and 5 SPD, and fast Supers with 30 DEX and 6 SPD. Those initial benchmarks flowed into every later edition, largely for reverse compatibility. By the time "Normal Humans" were established to largely cap out at 20 (that wasn't a max - stats above that level were just much more rare), it was far too late to change the standards. If Champions (First Ed) had statted out a Brick with 8 DEX and 2 SPD, a typical Super with 12 - 15 DEX and 3 SPD, and Martial Artists with DEX 20 and SPD 4, DEX 30 and SPD 6 would seem like the Fastest Man Alive, instead of the minimum to be taken seriously as superhumanly agile, and not even unusually fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 Well I hope DJWebb wanders across this at some point. Posted in July with no responses, and its such an easy thing to rebuild guys. From the very first champions game I played in 1982 I understood normal humans were 10-20 without any charts, I think it was even mentioned in the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 As far as I can tell, 3rd ed had the strength chart but no other Iindicators as to where heroic stopped and super characteristics started. 4th brought in from previous sipplements characteristic maxima and its subsequent confusion. Some read maxima (such as I) that that was the ceiling of heroic level/normal human but really Iit only meant that after a certain point you paid double points. It was fifth edition that had a chart that clearly defined normal/super human levels. Some people still seem to think that is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 In one of the Enemies Books they said that Starburst married Icicle, who is Crusader's cousin. They has a child with rapid aging syndrome and he was looking for his parents who were missing, and was undercover as a villain. His uncle Crusader was the only one who knew he wasn't a villain, but was killed off in one of the Dark Champions books. Sounds like plots from the Hero Cinematic Universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 I tihnk Icicle was Icestar's sister - the guy from the Guardians. Although that might have just been in the comic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 To me, a lot of it has to do with the history of Hero System. The very first Champions indicated a normal person had 10's (not 8's) across the board. It then provided "slow" Bricks with an 18 DEX and 4 SPD, agents with 3 SPD and 12-14 DEX, average Supers with 23 DEX and 5 SPD, and fast Supers with 30 DEX and 6 SPD. I have to ask, has anyone ran any characters built like this? Did you still get the super hero feeling? It could be one of those things that onnpaper sounds like a good idea but when in play and the dice are rolling, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sure, and to some degree I still do. Agents, I figure to be trained normals, so Speed 3 and Dex 13-15 is reasonable. I tend to run slow characters as 4 speed and fast ones at 6 still. Dex varies, but its rare to see one above 28 in my games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 I agree completely with Christopher. Those Characteristic levels quoted for earlier editions is what I am used to and nobody that I played with ever felt non-superheroic (except maybe for Endurance depletion). I am quite frankly puzzled by the point inflation that has creeped into the game in the last two editions. Back in the 2nd edition era, having a Speed higher than 6 was often undesirable because End costs for everything were twice as high and your character would be completely winded before the first post-segment 12 Recovery came around. And yet, when End costs were cut in half for 4th edition, people didn't suddenly build characters with 8 Speed. Instead they kept 2nd ed-scale builds and enjoyed the wonders of fighting at full power for more than a single Turn. The change to baseline Endurance costs (which included the simpler +1/2, +1 Reduced Endurance schema) was probably the single most significant (and most welcome) change made by the 4th ed rules. Everything else ever done to the system is small potatoes by comparison, at least in my view. Any system changes that have since created the need for 400-pt starting superheroes with 28 Dexes and 7 Speeds are highly dubious to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted October 28, 2014 Report Share Posted October 28, 2014 Slashing the cost of Recovery and Endurance made a huge difference to the speed effect. Its so cheap to pile up on both stats now that a speed of 7 is no particular problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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