7th Edition thoughts

[shuddemell]

Well put hyper-man. Scott my memory was hazy on the timing of Fuzion... Seems longer but is obviously just the cobwebs in my brain...

[shuddemell]

Hero Designer is the Turbotax of RPG's...

[Scott Baker]

GM's in very RP system need to be flexable. To allow players to rebuild characters that aren't working correctly and to work with new players to help them build the character that they want to play.

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day." Guess I'll have to owe you one Tasha.

[Scott Baker]

Well put hyper-man. Scott my memory was hazy on the timing of Fuzion... Seems longer but is obviously just the cobwebs in my brain...

NP. I completely skipped over the Fuzion era, so only had a vague idea.

 

Hero Designer is the Turbotax of RPG's...

And I'm still out of votes for today!

[Scott Baker]

This is a product of the toolkit approach of HERO.  As is, the system gives a GM the tools to make the finished game they want. 

 

It's that finished game that most folks want. 

 

The IT professionals on the board should understand the next analogy.

HERO is basically stuck at layer 6 of the OSI model.  What folks want is a program running at layer 7.

Yes! But you can't make me go back to my networking days. Now excuse me while I go write a Kindle Short (or whatever Amazon calls their program) titled, Everything I Need To Know About Gaming I Learned From The OSI Model.

 

Seriously, the "unfinished" game is what keeps me with Hero. I like to make my own game (which I've also done in years gone by). But I see most people around me looking for that "finished" product. Which still leads me to believe that we don't so much need a new version of Hero, just a complete, well-crafted setting, with supplemental materials (i.e., adventures) that anyone can use with one of the core books (CC, FHC). The setting/campaign book sets up all of the campaign rules that Hero normally leaves up to the GM. Then all of the additional materials are written to strictly follow those rules.

[Hyper-Man]

New folks need the finished examples.  A full character vs. a selection of powers.  A full campaign with a complete selection of what optional rules are being used vs. a list of multiple choices.  They need a baseline that works out of the gate. It might be boring but that's the easiest problem to fix with HERO.

 

One of my favorite 4e books was Classic Enemies.

 

From the George Perez cover to all the example characters builds with the new rules it was awesome. 

 

But I never used the builds as is.  I used it for inspiration for character builds in the same way that most other folks used Strike Force as campaign inspiration.  The Until Powers and Champions Power books are useful for this as well but I always enjoyed the villain books better. 

 

I still haven't purchased any of the new 6e ones yet but this is mainly due to a limited gaming budget of both time and money. My HERO fix for now is discussing HERO here and on other forums.

[Tasha]

Are you referring to Robot Warriors being Fuzion-like?

The powers are built with very similar mechanics. All based on Adding either Damage class or cost to the power.

[Tasha]

If anything, one can make an argument that the math in certain RPGs is too present, rather than being overly difficult. Quantity over "quality".

 

Also, I think GURPS has received a bit of an unfair reputation for complexity thanks to the Third Edition Vehicles supplement: in that book, the calculations you have to run are arguably more difficult than baseline GURPS character creation/play, but that is a necessity born out of creating vehicle statistics from real-world sources or even from scratch.

GURPS lost me with all of the Skills that gave you other skills that gave you other skills. You had to know what the best base skills were so you could get the most freebie skills. Also I really hated the way costs ramped up in that system. I will admit that I am basing this on 1st edition? Black Hard bound GURPS. So they could have changed that mess.

[Greywind]

The powers are built with very similar mechanics. All based on Adding either Damage class or cost to the power.

 

I don't recall Robot Warriors being all that common a supplement that many people would complain in the first place. Not highly regarded or ever sought after. The only reason I have a copy is my roommate left it to me when he died.

[Ragitsu]

GURPS lost me with all of the Skills that gave you other skills that gave you other skills. You had to know what the best base skills were so you could get the most freebie skills. Also I really hated the way costs ramped up in that system. I will admit that I am basing this on 1st edition? Black Hard bound GURPS. So they could have changed that mess.

 

Yeah: this isn't the case with Fourth Edition. At best, you get Skill Defaults (a swordsman has an idea of how to use a knife, a jungle survivalist can make do in a woodland, and so forth).

[NuSoardGraphite]

The vitriol against Fuzion stems from a few issues.

 

During a period when HERO had been MIA on the market for quite some time (no new books in a couple of years time) Fuzion came out. heralded as an "innovative new system" that was a combination of HERO and R Talsorian Games Interlock system (mekton, cyberpunk etc) which was very strange because the two systems had very different task resolution systems.

 

The first book released in the system was the Bubblegum Crisis rpg. that was something near and dear to my heart (one of my favorite anime of all time) and the end result, mechanically speaking, was less than stellar (the books make excellent reference material though)

 

At that time fuzion was new and mostly untried. it was clunky. it couldnt decide if it wanted to use a 3d6 mechanic or a 2d10 mechanic (it suggested either method) it included stun and body from hero, but reduced down to interlock level stats (2-10) but couldnt decide where the human average was. (One book suggested 4 was human average, another suggested higher or lower stats). It also added KILLS from mekton for dealing with heavy weaponry, which is a system fairly incompatible with heros stun and body damage system. the whole game was a schitzophrenic mess.

 

I had a discussion with one of the writers of the BGC rpg shortly after its release. Benjamin Wright who was a long standing employee of RTG, was under the impression that the interlock people and the hero people couldnt agree on which mechanics should go into the game, which is why it turned out to be such a mess. that initial experience with fuzion forever tainted my personal perspective on the game. it was a poorly implemented mess of a game that ruined what would have been the crown jewel rpg book (IMO) had it been presented in either hero or interlock (most fans expected it to be a supplement for mekton. suprise suprise)

 

The next fuzion book that came out was champions: the new millenium. this version of fuzion was obviously better thought out than the initial version printed in the bgc book, but was even less well recieved; mainly by long time champions fans who were afraid that this new version of champions was going to be the official replacement of the old version. whatever one might think about fuzion, positive or negative, it was NOT the HERO of old. fans were outraged not only by the vast changes to time proven game mechanics, but by a major overhaul in the theme and presentation of the champions universe. they advanced it to late iron-age style aka the Image era-style of supers which many elder champions fans did not appreciate (there was not much love among those fans for that style of superhero comics)

 

Thus the hatred of fuzion runs deep. one really did need to "be there" to fully grasp what happened to cause this. just be aware that it was not arbitrary and suggestions to change to anything resembling fuzion will likely be heavily resisted. that last attempt left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths.

 

That being said, fuzion did generate some fans. most of which came either from people who played some interlock or mainly from those unfamiliar with either system and thus had no dog in that fight one way or another. but from the hero side of the fence, the vast majority of the fans wanted nothing to do with it.

 

As for me, i loved both hero AND interlock. they are my two favorite systems and even i couldnt find anything positive about fuzion. take that for what it is worth.

[Stacie.Winters]

Yes! But you can't make me go back to my networking days. Now excuse me while I go write a Kindle Short (or whatever Amazon calls their program) titled, Everything I Need To Know About Gaming I Learned From The OSI Model.

 

Seriously, the "unfinished" game is what keeps me with Hero. I like to make my own game (which I've also done in years gone by). But I see most people around me looking for that "finished" product. Which still leads me to believe that we don't so much need a new version of Hero, just a complete, well-crafted setting, with supplemental materials (i.e., adventures) that anyone can use with one of the core books (CC, FHC). The setting/campaign book sets up all of the campaign rules that Hero normally leaves up to the GM. Then all of the additional materials are written to strictly follow those rules.

 

Thanks for sharing that OSI model.

 

I think if they did this and redid the entire Champions setting to something different because, let's face it, Champions is a Marvel universe clone the new setting was a brand new setting that matched at least some of the standards of book production that many gamers today have unfortunately come to expect... shiny hardcover, full color, glossy and if it was written in such a way that the setting was brought to the front and the system was second...

 

That would probably be the best thing that could happen for this game system.

 

This idea still matches with the one thing I've been saying from the beginning... change the perception and image of the game, reorganize it and rewrite it such a way where others can more easily get into it and although the basic of the game system is not changed at all... because the perception of the game is now different and more up to speed with today's games it's definitely probably that more people will be likely to give it a look and be more willing to play it.

 

Create a brand new Universe. Create a Rifts/Fallout clone (thematically speaking, not literally), but a setting and world where you can different power levels within the same setting, wildly different genre's mashing together with different sources of powers like magic, divine, supers, psi and technology and make it a gritty world where whatever you create can be explained.

 

Setting first, system second and make all the rules for the system the basic core rules absolutely necessary and needed for it to still remain Hero System. In this setting book, have a ton of premade powers that are just game effects and final costs and don't show the internal game math... repeat: DON'T SHOW THE INTERNAL GAME MATH. Just have a list of premade skills, perks, talents, and powers that fall within the different power categories and the game effect but for the love of god don't intimidate people with all the powers broken down into their itty bits.

 

Instead of having all the Abilities internal math shown, it's so much easier on the eyes to just have the description of the Ability written out with just words...

 

Like instead of seeing this ~

 

A- Tipsy Giant Potion: Aid STR 6d6 (Active Points 36); OAF Fragile (potion, - 1 1/4), Only works on characters who are drunk (-1), 4 Charges (-1); Total Cost: 8 pts...

 

rewrite this mechanical confusion to something like ~

 

B- Tipsy Giant Potion:

Cost: 8 pts (probably insert monetary cost as well for a setting with an in game monetary economy)

Key notes: Fragile

 

A potion that can be used 4 times before needing to be recharged that increases the person's STR by 6d6. This bonus STR fade at a rate of 6 STR per Recovery Phase (per Turn). The person drinking this potion must be drunk.

 

To anybody who doesn't get Hero System... that A example of this potion reads like gibberish at a glance but the second is pretty simple to understand. The second says the exact same thing as the first but the internal points of the magical item don't get in the way. It just says exactly what it does and what's necessary. I mean... to somebody who doesn't get the intricacies of Hero System, that entire first example of the potion is confusing because they don't know what Active Points and Total Cost means and what all those fractions mean and how the points came out and...

 

Basically put some flavor in the game.

 

I think this example here is what I really mean by simplifying the game when it comes right down to it.

[Ragitsu]

Isn't HERO a toolkit? If so, by default, that means the inherent mechanics have to be flavorless: you season to taste when constructing a setting.

 

Also, it seems that example B is challenging to re-work on the fly, as the mechanics are broken up and actually more obscured by description.

[shuddemell]

snip

This is more what I am thinking, not really change the mechanics so much, but rather presentation and attach it to an attractive or even popular setting. I believe that very few players want the toolkit, but for those of us who love to world build, it is essential. Yes, both of these can be satisfied with the same rule set, actually with the rule set the way it exists today. This is why I don't believe a major overhaul is necessary or even desirable, but rather things that use that as a base, but gloss over the nuts and bolts in presentation. The 2 volume set of 6E and even CC are the reference materials that the GM uses to world build, but things like Narosia (when it comes out) will be the things that MIGHT popularize Hero.

 

Ragitsu point is well taken as well though, because what you will end up with is power constructs that no one (except the author) can verify if the mechanics aren't spelled out. This isn't necessarily a problem per se, but it will be a challenge to those of us with a desire to tinker with things. Which, btw, I think is exactly what draws most of us to Hero in the first place. We want the full "Snap-on" set of tools, when most are just handing out a generic screwdriver and wrench. It would certainly cause interesting discussions (read arguments and fights) with game masters and rules lawyers... (I would certainly insist on an appendix for settings and splat that details constructions, so that those with the need or desire to know would have the information without having to recreate it)

[Lucius]

GURPS lost me with all of the Skills that gave you other skills that gave you other skills. You had to know what the best base skills were so you could get the most freebie skills. Also I really hated the way costs ramped up in that system. I will admit that I am basing this on 1st edition? Black Hard bound GURPS. So they could have changed that mess.

This is another example of what I mean by the organic paradigm of a character. Changing one thing, changes other things. Note that Hero does the exact SAME THING, but not as extensively:

 

1. Knowing the right Language makes other Languages cheaper or even free.

 

2. Once you have, say Combat Driving for a given type of vehicle, you can pick up other vehicles for 1 pt. for the same roll.

 

2. If you have a Skill that's "related" to the Skill you need, such as Organic Chemistry when what is called for is Toxicology, you can make the roll at a penalty - essentially the same as Gurps "If you have Skill X then you have Skill Y at the level X-3"

 

3. If you have a given Skill and then a second Skill that could also apply, you can get a "complementary" roll.

 

As for the "ramping up costs" Hero used to have something called Normal Characteristic Maxima. I don't think the idea works well in Hero but I think it works in GURPS perfectly.

 

 

. 

Instead of having all the Abilities internal math shown, it's so much easier on the eyes to just have the description of the Ability written out with just words...

 

Like instead of seeing this ~

 

A- Tipsy Giant Potion: Aid STR 6d6 (Active Points 36); OAF Fragile (potion, - 1 1/4), Only works on characters who are drunk (-1), 4 Charges (-1); Total Cost: 8 pts...

 

rewrite this mechanical confusion to something like ~

 

B- Tipsy Giant Potion:

Cost: 8 pts (probably insert monetary cost as well for a setting with an in game monetary economy)

Key notes: Fragile

 

A potion that can be used 4 times before needing to be recharged that increases the person's STR by 6d6. This bonus STR fade at a rate of 6 STR per Recovery Phase (per Turn). The person drinking this potion must be drunk.

 

To anybody who doesn't get Hero System... that A example of this potion reads like gibberish at a glance but the second is pretty simple to understand. The second says the exact same thing as the first but the internal points of the magical item don't get in the way. It just says exactly what it does and what's necessary. I mean... to somebody who doesn't get the intricacies of Hero System, that entire first example of the potion is confusing because they don't know what Active Points and Total Cost means and what all those fractions mean and how the points came out and...

 

Basically put some flavor in the game.

 

I think this example here is what I really mean by simplifying the game when it comes right down to it.

 

You're new, so you have missed the discussions we've had on exactly this topic. Which is not say I'm sorry to see the topic come up again, by no means do I think everything that needs to be said has been said yet.

 

I know I would like an export template for Hero Designer that shows ONLY the Name I've given the Ability, the Notes, and maybe the END Cost/ Charges/etc and associated Rolls. That is, it does NOT display the build information at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[NuSoardGraphite]

Thanks for sharing that OSI model.

 

I think if they did this and redid the entire Champions setting to something different because, let's face it, Champions is a Marvel universe clone the new setting was a brand new setting that matched at least some of the standards of book production that many gamers today have unfortunately come to expect... shiny hardcover, full color, glossy and if it was written in such a way that the setting was brought to the front and the system was second...

 

That would probably be the best thing that could happen for this game system.

 

This idea still matches with the one thing I've been saying from the beginning... change the perception and image of the game, reorganize it and rewrite it such a way where others can more easily get into it and although the basic of the game system is not changed at all... because the perception of the game is now different and more up to speed with today's games it's definitely probably that more people will be likely to give it a look and be more willing to play it.

 

Create a brand new Universe. Create a Rifts/Fallout clone (thematically speaking, not literally), but a setting and world where you can different power levels within the same setting, wildly different genre's mashing together with different sources of powers like magic, divine, supers, psi and technology and make it a gritty world where whatever you create can be explained.

 

Setting first, system second and make all the rules for the system the basic core rules absolutely necessary and needed for it to still remain Hero System. In this setting book, have a ton of premade powers that are just game effects and final costs and don't show the internal game math... repeat: DON'T SHOW THE INTERNAL GAME MATH. Just have a list of premade skills, perks, talents, and powers that fall within the different power categories and the game effect but for the love of god don't intimidate people with all the powers broken down into their itty bits.

 

Instead of having all the Abilities internal math shown, it's so much easier on the eyes to just have the description of the Ability written out with just words...

 

Like instead of seeing this ~

 

A- Tipsy Giant Potion: Aid STR 6d6 (Active Points 36); OAF Fragile (potion, - 1 1/4), Only works on characters who are drunk (-1), 4 Charges (-1); Total Cost: 8 pts...

 

rewrite this mechanical confusion to something like ~

 

B- Tipsy Giant Potion:

Cost: 8 pts (probably insert monetary cost as well for a setting with an in game monetary economy)

Key notes: Fragile

 

A potion that can be used 4 times before needing to be recharged that increases the person's STR by 6d6. This bonus STR fade at a rate of 6 STR per Recovery Phase (per Turn). The person drinking this potion must be drunk.

 

To anybody who doesn't get Hero System... that A example of this potion reads like gibberish at a glance but the second is pretty simple to understand. The second says the exact same thing as the first but the internal points of the magical item don't get in the way. It just says exactly what it does and what's necessary. I mean... to somebody who doesn't get the intricacies of Hero System, that entire first example of the potion is confusing because they don't know what Active Points and Total Cost means and what all those fractions mean and how the points came out and...

 

Basically put some flavor in the game.

 

I think this example here is what I really mean by simplifying the game when it comes right down to it.

I actually have no problem with this approach. if hero were to put out campaign settings and adventure scenarios that did this exact thing, that might help attracting new players. what i do have a problem with is changing the game mechanics. the core hero system is easily understood. the "complicated" part of hero stems from the custom powers generation toolkit. making a basic non-powered character in hero is actually quite easy.

[Tasha]

Be aware that I WAS there for the Fuzion release. I have been playing Hero as long or longer as pretty much anyone here. (2nd Boxed set for me)

Yeah, I remember the revulsion for the "Image like" CNM.

FUZION isn't the perfect system. It DID have some good ideas. Unfortunatly because people have an unreasonable hatred of the system, we can't even discuss the parts of the system that WERE good. or even the parts that were flawed but perhaps were on the right track. Because the moment some of those ideas start to be discussed all of the fuzion haters come out screeming "Nooooooooo that's FUZION you can't do ANYTHING that's like Fuzion" Shutting down ANY productive discussion one could have about any new concepts. This has really kept any real innovation with the system from happening IMHO.

[Greywind]

You're new...

 

Lucius, after a year the shiny wears off "new".

[redner]

The tax system should absolutely be dumbed-down! Who can understand that thing?! 

I got into HERO because M&M was confusing to me.  I couldn't figure out their math.  Seems that my brain is not wired for M&M.  Also, I find HERO way more simple than GURPS.

[shuddemell]

Be aware that I WAS there for the Fuzion release. I have been playing Hero as long or longer as pretty much anyone here. (2nd Boxed set for me)

 

Yeah, I remember the revulsion for the "Image like" CNM.

 

FUZION isn't the perfect system. It DID have some good ideas. Unfortunatly because people have an unreasonable hatred of the system, we can't even discuss the parts of the system that WERE good. or even the parts that were flawed but perhaps were on the right track. Because the moment some of those ideas start to be discussed all of the fuzion haters come out screeming "Nooooooooo that's FUZION you can't do ANYTHING that's like Fuzion" Shutting down ANY productive discussion one could have about any new concepts. This has really kept any real innovation with the system from happening IMHO.

Nearly as long as I have, but I still have my first edition blue book...

[tikiman]

Hero's Heroic Action Points are a bit overly complex IMHO. They do have an important role to play in the game. For one, it allows for players who are having a streak of bad luck to actually be able to Mitigate that somewhat. So the player can still feel like their character was fun to play and was effective.

That's exactly why I would never use them. Let the dice fall as they may, says I.

[Ragitsu]

That's exactly why I would never use them. Let the dice fall as they may, says I.

 

Some don't find it fun to die on a Critical Failure relating to an action that isn't as wholly heroic, as, say, fighting the villain head on.

 

Thank the RPG designers that came up with the prototypes for Action Points.

[tikiman]

I don't think that the core rules of HERO are really the issue. It has always had the best toolkitting rules on the market. What it has NOT had is the best finished game settings with actual examples of what optional rules were turned on and off and WHY. When folks are comparing M&M to Champions I think that's what's happening. HERO has always left that final 10-20% of fiddly choices to the GM. This is especially frustrating with Fantasy Hero as that final piece (a fully fleshed out magic system) is really THE biggest hurdle to letting the game actually have a chance of competing with other systems. Right now the perception is that HERO's support is something like "here's the toolkit and here are some example spells" but there isn't an actual list of spells for a specific world (this might not actually be the case but that's the perception). Instead of putting the toolkit front and center (which is not as big a deal these days with far more games and gamers doing system 'hacks' than in years past) HERO needs to produce a POLISHED setting with EVERY game time decision already made as a default (Strike Force did this). Then at the very end explain how to tweak stuff (like Hit Location, END use, Bleeding Rules, etc..). HERO is currently has numerous examples of how to make a COMPLETE CHARACTER for whatever setting but has very few if any good examples of a COMPLETE GAME. Improve the latter and the accessibility of the system to new players will increase.

 

my 2 sheckles

HM

This is part of why I love Lucha Libre Hero and think it' s the best book Hero has ever done. It has all the rules you need and shows you how to play in the genre and also has some adventure material to get you going. If Hero would publish more books that put it all together, it would be more appealing. It would help if the "core" book(s) weren't so dry and textbook-like as well.

[tikiman]

Some don't find it fun to die on a Critical Failure relating to an action that isn't as wholly heroic, as, say, fighting the villain head on.

 

Thank the RPG designers that came up with the prototypes for Action Points.

Yes, many people have difficulty with things not always going their way. They probably shouldn't get involved too deeply in a game of chance.

 

And yes, I'm well aware that Hero didn't invent "Action Points."

[Ragitsu]

Yes, many people have difficulty with things not always going their way. They probably shouldn't get involved too deeply in a game of chance.

 

Seems as though that trend is softening, because quite a few RPGs now come with Action Points as standard, or as a suggested optional rule.