Examples of liberal superheroes?

[BlueCloud2k2]

wcw43921 wrote:

 

Then there's the whole Code Vs. Killing thing, which to my mind would put most heroes--if not all of them--on the "anti-" side of the death penalty issue, usually seen as a liberal position. That doesn't mean they couldn't hold other points of view which could be seen as right-wing--Batman, I think, would prefer greater restrictions against convicts being granted parole, if not abolishing the practice altogether

There is a huge difference between not killing someone and being anti-death penalty. Batman doesn't kill because he thinks its wrong. He doesn't kill because he thinks the COURTS should be the ones to make that decision.

 

 

Edit: Hrm. Kinda went off on a tangent down below. Oops. Feel free to ignore (assuming I got the fracking spoiler tag to work right)

 

 

I would consider myself to have Code vs Killing (Common, Moderate) as if my life or the lives of my kith and kin (or even innocent bystanders) were in danger and I had to choose between letting a bad person hurt someone or taking their life, I wouldn't hesitate to do what was necessary. Does it mean that if given a choice between causing them great bodily harm and killing them I would kill them with no qualms? No. I would do what I could to not kill that person (shoot/stab him in the leg, what have you). If forced to take that person's life would I feel guilt over it? You bet. Even if it was justifiable homicide I would feel guilt. Am I anti death penalty? Frack no! Some people just need killing. Am I the person to make that decision? No. The justice system exists for a reason. Do I wish they would use it more? Well duh. Should they follow Texas and put in an express lane? Sounds good to me. I've seen first hand what incarceration does to people and there are some folks you just can't reach. So either you can lock them away for the rest of their natural lives where they will be a drain on society (though yes, prison guards do need jobs, I don't think packing 1000 guys in a prison only built to hold 600 is safe for either the inmates or the guards).

 

[Clonus]

Most superheroes simply don't pay attention to politics because the company doesn't want to push away audience and because those heros are a bit too busy fighting jet propelled monkeys to express an opinion about health care policy, abortion, marijuana decriminalization, or the separation of church and state. 

 

That being said, we can determine that certain superheroes are metaphors for various liberal ideas.  Professor Xavier and by extension most of the X-Men are used as metaphors for being racial minority or gay activists  so they can usually be classed as liberalish.

 

Captain America has certainly gone through strongly liberal spasms...sometimes to the point that he uncovered Nixon's sideline as a supervillain and then spent a while as the disillusioned Man Without A Country.  

 

The original Dove was an unflattering representation of anti-war activists in the Vietnam era.   But then Hawk was only slightly better as a representation of the hawk point of view.  

 

Brother Power was a hippie superhero.

 

Ms Marvel was a "feminist" superhero.  Which doesn't actually mean much since she was actually just doing typical superhero stuff in a costume that was skimpily impractical and never brought up the issue of wage parity or whatever...but just being the only Marvel superheroine to headline her own book and using "Ms" in her supernym sez that she was inspired...loosely by feminism.  

 

Wonder Woman on the other hand started out as a mouthpiece for a "women are better and should be in charge" point of view along with the "tying people up is hawt" message that was also very much what she was about.  

[Cancer]

Speaking as someone who still thinks (or perhaps wishes) he's in the Silver Age ... I find this discussion alien. The whole question is from a time after I stopped reading comics, and when the political polarization of America was under way.

 

Aside from general low-key patriotism (anti-Nazi/Fascist and then anti-Communist) superheroes were largely apolitical back before the mid-1970s or so. This included what is being called the classical liberal viewpoint, though that was carefully sanitized; non-Caucasians were window dressing (e.g., you expect Indians to be present on the Indian reservation if that's where the story happens) at most, deliberate depiction of an elected official as corrupt or venial almost never happened, and most forms of vice crimes were safely off-camera.

[Cancer]

And here are the numbers that prove it: ...

Not intended as a criticism of your post at all, but I wish that had been presented normalized to the population, that is, executions per thousand population rather than raw count. A hundred executions a year nationwide is different when the population is 12 million versus when it is 315 million. I could do that math myself (probably would if I was at the office) but I can't do the copy-paste into a spreadsheet on my iPad here at home anywhere near as easily....

[Vondy]

Not intended as a criticism of your post at all, but I wish that had been presented normalized to the population, that is, executions per thousand population rather than raw count. A hundred executions a year nationwide is different when the population is 12 million versus when it is 315 million. I could do that math myself (probably would if I was at the office) but I can't do the copy-paste into a spreadsheet on my iPad here at home anywhere near as easily....

 

Understood!

 

I didn't want to write a dissertation, but if you follow the link at the bottom of the post there is a ton more data to drill down on.

 

The US population in 1920 was 106 million and rose to 152 million by 1950.

 

US Executions 1925-1949: 3,644

 

By 1970 the US population had risen to 203 million. This encompass the silver age of comics (1951-1970).

 

US Executions 1950-1974: 916

 

By 2000 the US population had risen to 281 million. This encompasses the bronze age of comics (1970-1985) and modern age of comics.

 

US Executions 1976-2002: 760

 

Eyeballing it with little to no precision....

 

The US had 6+ times as many executions when it had only HALF of today's population (Golden Age)!

 

It had about 30% more executions when it had about 70% of today's population (Silver Age).

 

I would love to see any numbers you come up with.

[assault]

Aside from general low-key patriotism (anti-Nazi/Fascist and then anti-Communist) superheroes were largely apolitical back before the mid-1970s or so. This included what is being called the classical liberal viewpoint, though that was carefully sanitized; non-Caucasians were window dressing (e.g., you expect Indians to be present on the Indian reservation if that's where the story happens) at most, deliberate depiction of an elected official as corrupt or venial almost never happened, and most forms of vice crimes were safely off-camera.

 

We've already demonstrated that this is incorrect. Comics have always reflected the political environment around them, whether its New Deal liberalism, early 50s McCarthyism or the swing towards liberalism in the late 60s/early 70s.

 

The comics code may have discouraged the presentation of corrupt officials and the like - but this was a reaction against such portrayals!

 

What is commonly called the "Bronze Age" of comics is typically dated to the early (not-mid) 70s. It was related to the youth radicalisation of the time, and, like that radicalisation, actually began in the 60s. The 70s stories - Speedy using drugs, the death of Gwen Stacy, etc - were turning points, but were also following on from an established trend towards "relevant" stories and less wooden characters.

 

Bizarrely, the 60s Teen Titans were early exemplars of this trend, despite the ludicrousness of their stories. It took a while for the (often middle aged) men creating comics to get a grip on what was going on. They still mostly made a hash of it, but at least they tried.

 

In theory we should be able to point out conservative trends in early 80s (Reagan/Thatcher era) comics.

[Nothere]

And now for a bit of randomness.

 

On the subject of Wonder Womans stance. The Amazons habit of tying people up was a part of their credo of Submitting to loving authority. Make of that what you will.

[Vondy]

And now for a bit of randomness.

 

On the subject of Wonder Womans stance. The Amazons habit of tying people up was a part of their credo of Submitting to loving authority. Make of that what you will.

 

Wonder Woman's creator was a very "interesting" dude.

 

Rope bondage, over the knee spankings, and chasing female college dressed up in deer suits....

[Vondy]

We've already demonstrated that this is incorrect. Comics have always reflected the political environment around them...

 

I think "it is common for comics to reflect the political environment" is a more accurate statement.

 

Not all comics have done so, and comics have not always consistently done so.

 

Nor have individual character's politics always remained consistent throughout their runs.

 

It is, however, common for the political environment to be represented in many comics.

[assault]

Political environments are never uniform or stable, and their impacts on comics are mediated by the individuals creating them.

 

For example, Steve Ditko would always produce comics that are politically different from, say, Dennis O'Neil.

 

Better yet, Super Green Beret was produced during the same period that anti-war sentiment and liberalism was beginning to seep through into other comics.

[Lucius]

Err...he dressed in a deer suit and chased a female college? What, the student body plus faculty, all of them?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Mounting a palindromedary and chasing a convent.

[Balabanto]

Speaking as someone who still thinks (or perhaps wishes) he's in the Silver Age ... I find this discussion alien. The whole question is from a time after I stopped reading comics, and when the political polarization of America was under way.

 

Aside from general low-key patriotism (anti-Nazi/Fascist and then anti-Communist) superheroes were largely apolitical back before the mid-1970s or so. This included what is being called the classical liberal viewpoint, though that was carefully sanitized; non-Caucasians were window dressing (e.g., you expect Indians to be present on the Indian reservation if that's where the story happens) at most, deliberate depiction of an elected official as corrupt or venial almost never happened, and most forms of vice crimes were safely off-camera.

 

More importantly, Superheroes save everyone. They don't take sides in political disputes.

[The Weapon]

A lot of characters would depend not just on your definition of "liberal," but who was writing them at the time.  I remember a letter column in a long-ago issue of Captain America where the writer of the time offered the opinion that Cap was a New Deal liberal.  The Ultimate Universe Cap has been depicted as a very solid conservative, with attitudes towards women and minorities that seem quite bigoted by today's sensibilities--or so I understand.

 

Wonder Woman was created in part on the belief by William Moulton Marston that women were not only becoming more powerful in society, but that they were better suited for leadership because they were more disposed towards the greater good than men, who sought power for their own gain.  Obviously not a traditional precept.

 

Just about any character written by Dennis "Denny" O'Neil is going to come off as a liberal, I think.  I remember on his run on Daredevil after Bullseye--Elektra's murderer--regained his mobility after Daredevil had crippled him during Frank Miller's run.  Daredevil kept talking about how he was going to kiil Bullseye when he finally found him--but when he had him at his mercy, he realized he couldn't do it.  "I'm not a killer," was his line, as much to himself as it was to Bullseye.

 

Then there's the whole Code Vs. Killing thing, which to my mind would put most heroes--if not all of them--on the "anti-" side of the death penalty issue, usually seen as a liberal position.  That doesn't mean they couldn't hold other points of view which could be seen as right-wing--Batman, I think, would prefer greater restrictions against convicts being granted parole, if not abolishing the practice altogether. 

 

Hope that helps.

You could be a New Dealer and horribly racist.  In fact at least some of the New Deal was designed to benefit whites at the expense of blacks, the minimum wage for instance.  

 

Code vs. Killing doesn't equate to opposing the death penalty.  It is possible to believe that the State should be able to kill someone after due process but that individuals should not.  I don't agree with both positions and I'm not a liberal.  As for whether I'm a conservative, that depends on what you think it means, I have no idea since it changed beyond recognition.  Plus I don't care.

[megaplayboy]

Well, the X-Men are civil rights activists, of a sort. Make of that what you will. Magneto would be an "extremist", probably considered a "left-wing" terrorist, not sure exactly. Magneto and Prof. X are supposed to be stand-ins for peaceful coexistence(MLK) and militancy(Malcolm X).

Tony Stark might be a philanthropic business conservative who's socially liberal--i.e., a RINO or Rockefeller Republican.

 

For the most part most superheroes don't seem to get too politically involved. And their politics does not impede them from working together or working with government agencies on occasion. Even the X-Men have worked with government agencies once in a while.

 

I suspect Superman is a pragmatic idealist--whatever is effective to help as many people as possible. He's not really focused on capital gains tax rates or trade treaties.

[massey]

The Authority are militant left wing types.  They aren't exactly a realistic depiction of modern liberalism and they don't do nuanced positions, but they're obviously liberal.  Captain Atom is probably a fairly hardcore Republican, or at least he seems to be portrayed that way.  Lex Luthor probably votes elephant as well.

 

More iconic characters like Superman and Batman are sometimes used for whatever political point the author wants to make.  Look at Superman in Dark Knight Returns, where he's Reagan's attack dog.  Captain America is going to be a lot more politically conservative when you try to write Falcon as an "angry black guy" and you need Cap to represent the establishment.

[Enforcer84]

Weren't Green Arrow and Hawkman played off as a political Odd Couple a few times? With the Hawk being an authoritarian conservative and Ollie being an angry rich liberal?

[Ragitsu]

Weren't Green Arrow and Hawkman played off as a political Odd Couple a few times? With the Hawk being an authoritarian conservative and Ollie being an angry rich liberal?

 

Green Arrow and Hawkman? Interesting. The only clearly political Odd Couple matchup I know of is Green Arrow with Green Lantern.

[Greywind]

Dinah grew concerned when Ollie was left in a room with Carter, alone, in the JSA headquarters.

[BlueCloud2k2]

For some reason I'm reminded of a scene from one of the Justice League cartoons - All of the JL members were in a tizzy about something and Flash and Booster Gold were sitting in the back of the room playing Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.

 

Best. Scene. EVER!

 

EDIT: Tried to find a video of that scene and the closest I'm coming up with is 'Ties that Bind' where Flash was playing RSR with Elongated Man. Maybe I'm not remembering it right.

 

https://www.cloudy.ec/v/d5855f33c263e

 

4:45 if anyone cares.

 

21:45 too.

[Willpower]

Frankly speaking, it depends largely on the writer for almost any particular character. It also depends on your personal definition of liberal and conservative. To many Conservative means not caring, big business and all sorts of other nonsense. To others, it means being responsible for your own actions. Though even those conservatives that are the most right wing still believe in sticking up for others less fortunate, which means those that can't fight for themselves. It is the worst diatribe that thinks conservatives don't think society should help no one. They simply think it is not the responsibility of society to do so, particularly when they can help themselves. Likewise, to many liberals mean the taking money from those who earn it to give it to those that just want to sit on their butts all day and all sorts of other nonsense. To others it means, society should work somewhat like a family, with those capable of better taking care of themselves and others doing so and giving a portion of that which they have more of to those less fortunate and less able to take care of themselves.

 

Both sides have nonsense declared about them both to the far left and the far right.

 

The truth of that matter is that, the nonsensical portions of both sides DO in fact exist, but DO NOT in fact make up the largest proportion of either side. For the nonsensical liberal, there are those out their perfectly able to work, who sit around and let society do it for them, even though they could do better for themselves if they would just try. My uncle is a case for that. He has a 180 IQ, and can type 90words per minute. Though he is a strong liberal and an alcoholic. He has no trouble getting a job, he just loses it shortly after, because he goes on drinking binges after he gets paid and doesn't show up for a week. He knows how to work the public welfare system though, so he either fakes illnesses, or exaggerates existing illnesses. For those that ask, how I know this. As I said, he is my uncle, family knows things. For the nonsensical conservatives, those who pinch every penny, pay anyone that has the misfortune to work for them less than they are worth, and do whatever they can to hide money from the government. Many of these will be employers that will take anyone working currently at full time status, and turn them all into part time workers so they will not have to pay for their healthcare. Though not everyone who does this will fit into that category.

 

I am undecided if Green Arrow is truly a liberal or not though. I think that he is the case of someone who looks out for the little guy, though that concept can be liberal or conservative. The rest for him I think depends on who is writing him, and what the company itself out and out says about him if any declaration is actually made. Though, there are plenty of times when people think they are one political persuasion when in fact they act another. My ex-wife's family for instance, and devout democrats, however when I speak to them about any political issues, they always end up on the conservative side. They are home owners, and they have a bit of wealth, and they are against people taking what they have. That by itself does not make them conservatives, but the choices they make based on those principles put them more often than not on the conservative side of most bills. They always vote for democratic candidates however.

[Enforcer84]

Oh and I think Hal and Ollie did the same schtick in the Silver Age. 

 

Ollie was anti-establishment, Hal and Carter played the more Establishment foil 

[Ragitsu]

It is entirely possible to be socially liberal and financially conservative, or vice versa.

 

That said, to me, Green Arrow always (or almost always, barring exceptional cases) was and is portrayed as being what I would consider a liberal hero. He (and the writers behind him) kept vocally criticizing what was "socially unacceptable but really very harmless".

 

Well, that's when he's in his element (fighting for the little man in big cities), of course. Killing aliens? Not so much .

[Hermit]

It is entirely possible to be socially liberal and financially conservative, or vice versa.

 

That said, to me, Green Arrow always (or almost always, barring exceptional cases) was and is portrayed as being what I would consider a liberal hero. He (and the writers behind him) kept vocally criticizing what was "socially unacceptable but really very harmless".

 

Well, that's when he's in his element (fighting for the little man in big cities), of course. Killing aliens? Not so much .

 

Ahem, Green Arrow didn't refer to it as killing aliens, he referred to it as 'biological displacement of aggressive galaxy citizens"

 

jk

[Pariah]

Early on, Colossus was portrayed as an actual Soviet Communist (although idealistic). That's bound to get him branded as a liberal.

[Ragitsu]

Early on, Colossus was portrayed as an actual Soviet Communist (although idealistic). That's bound to get him branded as a liberal.

 

Given the time in which he debuted, that was revolutionary (no pun intended), yes?