Cinniuint Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Thought of this while reading about Devachan spells. A magical light that illuminates an area so that it can be sensed magically. This illumination would penetrate darkness and allow objects so illy mined to be somehow perceived through that same darkness. It might also illuminate invisible and immaterial objects and entities, revealing them to easy perception. The light would not penetrate walls, so things beyond a wall would not be so illuminated, but things in the room where the light is generated would be perceivable to entities out side the room. So, the light itself is an AOE transform that transforms all objects to make them have an indirect transform that causes all entities in range to have an N-ray targeting discriminatory perception of those objects. Not the way I think the power should be written up, but I hope it coneys how I think it should function. Two easier builds are just to illuminate with magical or mental energy so that the area can be perceived clearly by anyone nearby with sense magic or mental awareness. Those forms would be shut down by the appropriate darknesses, but none should be affected by sight group darkness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 I would think an AOE, UAO enhanced sense would be the best way. You would use it like an attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Ps the idea of the spell is pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aversill Posted April 16, 2014 Report Share Posted April 16, 2014 Can you trigger a perception? If so, you make a triggered detect on the room, so you don't have to be there for the spell to go off, and then link that to images (of the room if everything were visible). That wouldn't counteract darkness, but then, I'm not sure how that works. If I'm in an area of inky blackness and I'm holding a magic item, it would shine. Would it dispel the darkness or would other people in the darkness see the object, and if the latter could they see me (would it, in essence, illuminate other stuff). The reason I ask is because of the UOO possibility. I don't particularly like it because, by your description someone a mile away can see the illumined object, and I don't want to have to hit that person with the UOO (it can be done, but it's pricey). If you buy a dispel on the darkness field, you could apply limitations to it; specifically, (only to dispel darkness regarding object that can be seen with sense X). This would give the object immunity. If it illuminates me as well, that gets a bit more complicated. In my opinion, and there are probably a lot of ways to do this, but I don't like Transform for things like this. The problem is that Body factor. So, the dragon can't see the object, but the giant ant can? I think you're better off working through images and dispel if you can swing it, since images works off a sense you know everyone has and dispel works off the one power you know will complicate the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 An AOE Drain or Dispell vs. Darkness and Invisibility effects would be another approach. Combine with a Detect to finish it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted April 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 The idea is that the energy illuminates with such a powerful magic that anyone can perceive it. Well, maybe not robots, but a blind man should be able to perceive it. Not sure about golems. And yet it would not function as a flash against those who can sense magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Images Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted April 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Hmm. N-ray images vs variable sense? Perhaps Mental Illusions with a detect invisible thrown in? That's more on the right track. Define it as allowing those with mental defense to recognize the illusion but still perceive it, Fewer points, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Not sure how to do this but I like the idea. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary's battle cry: Illuminate the Opposition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aversill Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 The only problem with images is that it won't make it through Darkness (it will counteract CE). Otherwise, what you're describing can be accomplished with images. The problem I was saying before was that if you make a dispel on the darkness (the obvious solution), you have to have rule calls in your favor. So, for instance, you're not dispelling the person, you're dispelling the effect... You can generally do that, but darkness is an area affect, so does the dispel have to be area to get this to work? If so, does it have to have enough area to cover the whole thing? Will left-over slivers of darkness act as shields against LOS? That seems kind of knit picky. If you are only dispelling the darkness so as to see the glowing magic objects, that's probably a -1/2 limitation, maybe less. Your mileage may vary. But if other things can be seen in the darkness because of the illuminated objects, it's probably a -1/4 or -0 limitation. Either way, as the images are pretty dang limited, it probably won't be a pricey power. I'd say one of the special effects of the thing is that if someone makes their perception roll, they shouldn't disbelieve the image, but should probably get what it is that they are seeing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 17, 2014 Report Share Posted April 17, 2014 Depends on how the Darkness is defined. Images (Light Source) can cut through Darkness. Change Environment (Bright Light) can cut through Darkness. All depends on how the Darkness is defined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Here is a 5e era thread on a similar subject: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/52720-increasing-target-visibility/?hl=glitterdust&do=findComment&comment=1294713 Unfortunately, the links in this post no longer work since the forum software changed. You would just need to do a topic/user search like I did to find this (ex: glitterdust/hyper-man). Re: Increasing Target VisibilityYou might want to take a look at the Glitterdust conversion debate on this old Fantasy Hero thread:Sorceror/Wizard 3.5 Spell (1st - 2nd Lvl)http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1270968#post1270968http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271214&postcount=921 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 109 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (87 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 18) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Linked (Suppress Invisibility; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) - END=[1 cc]http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1271245&postcount=15a few more thoughts to consider...Detect built as part of the Sight Group wouldn't actually work against Invisibility vs. Sight. It would actually need to be based on a sense group not affected by the Invisibility. edit.. also Detect by itself is not a Targeting sense.Continuing Charge 1 Turn in HERO (12 seconds) seems a bit quick since I believe a Turn in DnD is a bit longer (1 minute?) unless that has also changed.Here's another alternative to Detect:40 I Can See Invisible People!: Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group), *Range, Usable Simultaneously (up to 8 people at once; +1), Area Of Effect (5" Radius; +1) (81 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Invisibile targets (magical based Invisibility and/or Images) (-1) - END=0* Note, the "Range" portion of Spatial Awareness is a part of that power that must be purchased when SpAw is not built as part of a normally 'ranged' sense group like sight or hearing. It is not the same as the Ranged Advantage.http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272416&postcount=35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Depends on how the Darkness is defined. Images (Light Source) can cut through Darkness. Change Environment (Bright Light) can cut through Darkness. All depends on how the Darkness is defined. If you are using a big D in Darkness because you are referring to the Power than I'm pretty sure by RAW you are wrong on both counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 As I said, it depends on how the power is defined. Common sense has to enter into things some where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Sure, but common sense would probably indicate that it would be worth a Limitation on the Darkness since that is very drastically limiting its use (far more than is justifiable from SFX I would think) or that a different Power that can actually negate Darkness be used... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted April 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 What I am imagining, I think, is that everyone has an undeveloped, unnoticed sense of magic. This is an unusual, targeting sense. Sorcerers develop this sense to the point where they are aware of it in much the same way that some martial artists develop their sense of Chi. The illumination, then, is simply so much magical energy that anyone can notice it so much that they can discriminate fine details. If, IF, I can sell this idea to the GM, then there are a couple of fairly simple solutions to describing the power. However, if the GM doesn't buy that idea, then this power suddenly becomes very difficult to build and probably very exorbitant to pay for. I had originally conceived this as like a light source. Constant illumination that, when turned off is gone. A couple of posts above seem to perceive this as an instant power providing a lingering illumination from the objects struck by it. Am interested in exploring that idea, too, but for now: Power is constant, AOE (perhaps explosion, but that doesn't make much rules sense), does not cast secondary light, if effect partially inter penetrates a darkness field, then only objects in the illuminated section of the Darkness will be visible, but it will be possible to see those objects through the untouched portion of darkness. Also, if the source of illumination is turned off, the objects in the darkness are immediately obscured again. For that matter, the Darkness field is never banished, and objects within it are never actually seen, just magically perceived. The sense is more like radar, sonar or X-Ray. So, if it were built as a new power, what ought it to cost? And if you were to build it using existing powers, is it possible to do so without exceeding what it ought to cost by more than 25% or 25 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Sounds like a variation of N-Ray Vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted April 18, 2014 Report Share Posted April 18, 2014 Thought of this while reading about Devachan spells. A magical light that illuminates an area so that it can be sensed magically. This illumination would penetrate darkness and allow objects so illy mined to be somehow perceived through that same darkness. It might also illuminate invisible and immaterial objects and entities, revealing them to easy perception. The light would not penetrate walls, so things beyond a wall would not be so illuminated, but things in the room where the light is generated would be perceivable to entities out side the room. So, the light itself is an AOE transform that transforms all objects to make them have an indirect transform that causes all entities in range to have an N-ray targeting discriminatory perception of those objects. Not the way I think the power should be written up, but I hope it coneys how I think it should function. Two easier builds are just to illuminate with magical or mental energy so that the area can be perceived clearly by anyone nearby with sense magic or mental awareness. Those forms would be shut down by the appropriate darknesses, but none should be affected by sight group darkness. A tricky one, as the original setting propably follwos very different asumptions. Darkness and Invisibility are one of the rare "absolute" effects. Sense affecting powers always override sesnes built with that sense or sense group. You cannot "break through" Darkness or Invisibility. You can dispel/supress it. But the most common way to overcome darkenss is to just use a different Sense (group). One that is unaffected normally (but might still be affected by a special darkness power). My first idea is: Special Sense, AoE plus Image to Special Senses, AoE (alternatively, make the Special Sense active) Maybe adapting "works as additional form of movement". A +1/4 or +1/2 Naked Modifier on normal Sight, "works as Magical Sight too", AoE. What I am imagining, I think, is that everyone has an undeveloped, unnoticed sense of magic. This is an unusual, targeting sense. Sorcerers develop this sense to the point where they are aware of it in much the same way that some martial artists develop their sense of Chi. The illumination, then, is simply so much magical energy that anyone can notice it so much that they can discriminate fine details. If, IF, I can sell this idea to the GM, then there are a couple of fairly simple solutions to describing the power. It would cut down on the need to apply the sense group to others, reducing the whole thing to just images (as light, towards proper sense). Unfortuantely transalting the concept of "eveyrone has it, only magic users are trained in using it" might be hard. How about: Everyone get's "Detect Magic, Sense (part of the unusual group, maybe the magic group if that one exists)" for free. Wich means every can at least see the refelction, but not nessesariyl make "sense" of it. Those that have trained thier magic eye buy additional sense modifiers like Discriminatory, maybe Analyzing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinniuint Posted April 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2014 So: (sense spell effect, ranged, discriminatory, targeting)UOO, AOE, (big AOE) with linked Images (magical illumination) usable against invisible, dimensional. Will have to look up the points, but seems like a lot. Since in concept I am not giving any senses to anyone, I have decided this build has to be defined as giving the sense of the Image effect. If some powerful magic Frying Pan of Doom is laying around, don't want people to suddenly recognize the nature of the pan because of my spell. Am thinking that there might be a possible build for this using Change Environment. TV is on & I can't focus on the idea right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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