Killing Attacks

[ghornet]

My friends and I always have the same argument.  They say a killing attack shouldn't be more than 2d6.  And another friend and I disagree.  While you don't want it to high, 2d6 sometimes doesn't even get through any PD or armor.

[Steve Long]

Since this isn't a rules question, I've moved it to the Discussion board.

[Christopher]

Wheter you want KA to be effective is mostly a Campaign Design Choice.

In Heroic Power Level campaigns killing attacks should generally be effective*. In your average Sword-And-Sorcery film, contempoary time film, western and the like a lot of people die.

 

For Superheroic campaigns killing attacks should generally be not effective*. It's a common rule of those settings that people don't die. Most of the time the environment is not even hit that hard. KA shold not be effective, so everyone uses Blasts. KA are still suiteable against Robots/Dumb undead/Demons (things a CvK would not affect), Barriers, Entangles, Walls, Foci and the like.

 

*At least this is what I get from soruce amterials and Defense/DC/Resistant defense ratio of the Campaign levels. Your mileage may varry.a

 

The job of KA in the HERO System is to deal BODY damage. It deals some stun damage, but that one is secondary. On average the same DC/AP of KA do slightly more body (wich is also stopped by a rarer defense) and slightly less body.

Normal Damage Attacks have the job to deal stun damage, without much body damage (and likely none at all). Most superheroes run around with at 12-16 PD/ED wich means even a good roll on 12d6 will not cause loss of body.

 

Looking at max, average and minimum values for each side helps:

12D6 Normal Damage does:

24 Body/72 Stun max

12 Body/42 Stun Average

0 Body/12 Stun Minimun

 

4d6 KA does:

24 Body/72 Stun max

14 Body/28 stun average

4 Body/4 Stun min

 

The averages are important as most rolls will be at or closely by the average. The more dice you roll, the less likely very high or low rolls become.

[Tasha]

My friends and I always have the same argument.  They say a killing attack shouldn't be more than 2d6.  And another friend and I disagree.  While you don't want it to high, 2d6 sometimes doesn't even get through any PD or armor.

This is a completely meaningless discussion without knowing the campaign and Genre. For Fantasy Hero(and most other Heroic Games) 2d6 Killing attack works great. Most rPD is around 5 and maxes at 8. If you are talking about a typical Champions Game 2d6 Killing is on the small side. 3d6+1 to 4d6 KA are a better range for DC 10 and DC12 games respectively.

[psyber624]

In general unless there is a GM imposed ground rule restricting KA's or Mandatory CvK Complications you should expect KA's to be, on average, comparable in damage to other damage types on a point per point basis.

 

The "standard" mantra i see on here is about 2x DC in defenses, 1/2 resistant. At that level Non-killing attacks will basically never do body damage and Killing attacks will rarely do more than a few points (1d6 of KA is 3 DC, so you are talking about 3 rDef vs a roll of 1-6, averaging .5 Body per die of killing damage. Even in a 12 DC campaign thats only 2 Body getting through on average).

 

Now it is true that KA's can be deadly with a lucky roll, and some people don't like that (moreso if you use hit locations). However purchasing a lower DC of KA will result in you rarely doing Body damage AT ALL unless you get a lucky roll.

 

Of course all of this depends on the DC's of your campaign. If you are running an 6 DC campaign then 2d6 is appropriate for KA's. If your running 12 DC however 2d6 is a waste of points.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Killing Attacks take many forms. Heavy Pistols are usually around 2d6. High powered rifles and HMG's are usually a bit more than that. Anti-tank weapons should be around 4d6, and Armor Piercing as well.

 

The killing dice of nuclear weapons go well into the 20s.

 

In short your GM friend is mistaken.

[Ninja-Bear]

My friends and I always have the same argument. They say a killing attack shouldn't be more than 2d6. And another friend and I disagree. While you don't want it to high, 2d6 sometimes doesn't even get through any PD or armor.

[Ninja-Bear]

When you say no more than 2D6 killing? Are you refering to personal weapons? Such as swords aor guns? Is there a campaign guideline that you are following? Published or GM created?

[Ninja-Bear]

Killing Attacks take many forms. Heavy Pistols are usually around 2d6. High powered rifles and HMG's are usually a bit more than that. Anti-tank weapons should be around 4d6, and Armor Piercing as well.

 

The killing dice of nuclear weapons go well into the 20s.

 

In short your GM is mistaken.

Where did you find the OP said that they were using 'standard' guidelines? Did I miss something? Or was your answer just an assumption?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Where did you find the OP said that they were using 'standard' guidelines? Did I miss something? Or was your answer just an assumption?

 

I edited my post to reflect that he's debating with a friend, not his GM. My bad.

 

As for which guidelines he's using, what's the difference? A flat 2d6 ceiling on KA's makes no sense regardless.

[Ninja-Bear]

Problem as I see it, is that I'm not sure what the flat 2D6 was on. Thats why I asked him what is is for. My impression is that it was only for personal weapons like swords and or pistols. Plus, if the GM is trying for a less lethal game he may reasin that the best way to do it is to limit the amount of killing dice you can use. However, wirhout more information I'm just making a blind guess. With campaign specifics one can give better advice. One can say (with specifics) hey I get why you want to limit 2d6 ka, but have you thought of using combat luck to help with survivability?

[Lucius]

My friends and I always have the same argument.  They say a killing attack shouldn't be more than 2d6.  And another friend and I disagree.  While you don't want it to high, 2d6 sometimes doesn't even get through any PD or armor.

 

There isn't any sensible way to address this without more information. Who's running the game, you or your friend or someone else? What kind of game is it - what genre, what power level? What kind of normal damage attacks are allowed? that are typical defenses? Are you using Hit Locations? Heck, what edition of Hero System are you using?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

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