Joe Walsh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 Yeah. The first hint that Zoom was back should have been Joe, Iris, Wally, Tina, Harrison, Jesse, Cisco, Caitlin and dear old dad all dropping with their throats slashed open. "A running man can cut a thousand throats in a night," Zoom says, as Barry stares in horror at his dead family and friends, "but that's if he's merely human. Why stop there? Let's go for a million." And he vanishes, running through the streets of Central City killing everyone he meets, with Flash in hot pursuit....and already on the road to madness from anger and grief. Great idea! And it wouldn't even be a problem in terms of the contracts with the actors. The writers can pull in doppelgänger characters from other earths infinitely! Barry, many seasons later: "Cisco, or whatever you call yourself. I've killed a thousand of you and watched a thousand more die at the hands of Zoom. I just don't care any more." Lots of CW-ish emo potential! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 42 earths means 42 different Cisco's, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 I concur. And yes, it bothered me immensely that 1) Zoom was able to create a portal with his hand and escape to Earth-2, and 2) that Barry and friends apparently completely ignored the possibility that Zoom would COME BACK once the vibrational threat ended, since he can (apparently) come and go at will. Yeah. The first hint that Zoom was back should have been Joe, Iris, Wally, Tina, Harrison, Jesse, Cisco, Caitlin and dear old dad all dropping with their throats slashed open. "A running man can cut a thousand throats in a night," Zoom says, as Barry stares in horror at his dead family and friends, "but that's if he's merely human. Why stop there? Let's go for a million." And he vanishes, running through the streets of Central City killing everyone he meets, with Flash in hot pursuit....and already on the road to madness from anger and grief. Or, alternatively, if Barry's superspeed is always on and doesn't have to be activated, meaning he can react to Zoom's sudden appearance as quickly as a normal person could react to a normal intruder bursting through the door--all everyone else sees is a blast of displaced air and then a tornado of red and yellow lightning until one or the other of them drops, unconscious or dead, or flees. The problem with power-gaming situations like these is that the results become so bloody boring. Why would I bother to watch a show where all of my favorites are killed off just to prove how powerful the villain is? What do you do for an encore? Perhaps, some of the flaws in the story are really genre tropes: It’s one of the lesser-known failings of the vampire. No one knows why. It goes with having big windows and easily torn curtains. A sort of undeath-wish, you might say. However clever they are, they can’t resist thinking that no one will recognize their name if they spell it backwards. --Terry Pratchett BoloOfEarth and Nolgroth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 You make a valid point, Ternaugh. It has long been understood/acknowledged, at least by Champions' original creators, that RPG sessions make for lousy comic (and by extension tv or movie) stories. One of the reasons for that is that highly effective play by smart players (call it "power-gaming" if you must) is a great way to "win the game," but not a great way to write a story with a classic (and therefore classically satisfying) dramatic arc. Unfortunately, while tv writers are (usually) very familiar with classic dramatic structure, they are woefully behind the curve when it comes to creative and/or optimal use of super powers, and not nearly experienced or savvy enough to work out the logical consequences of the super power usage they do write into their scripts. What we end up with is a huge disconnect between what the tv writers are capable of and what we, as diehard comics readers and Champions players, expect from a superhero universe/campaign. I'd like to believe that there is a middle-ground between the two extremes; that there is a satisfying mixture of classic storytelling and smart RPG-style power usage to be found. It probably just takes a different breed of writer than Hollywood generally has access to. Not many talented writers have a background in superhero RPGing. The original Wild Cards crew is about the only one that immediately comes to mind. aylwin13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 The problem with power-gaming situations like these is that the results become so bloody boring. Why would I bother to watch a show where all of my favorites are killed off just to prove how powerful the villain is? What do you do for an encore? Perhaps, some of the flaws in the story are really genre tropes: Yeah, and I don't really expect Zoom to abruptly murder most of the cast of the show. But in terms what you might actually expect of a superfast psychopath? That's one way to go. What I really want is just to have the protagonists show a little intelligence. So, yeah, they captured the lesser threats and drove Zoom away. Do they talk about (or show ANY evidence of having considered) what to do if Zoom comes back (as he clearly could do, given how easily he escaped)? No. Instead, they decide to have a dinner party and just ASSUME the threat is over. That was just stupid. The recurring villain is a classic trope (and not just in comics). And it's one I've grown incredibly tired of, primarily because bad tv writers so often resort to making the heroes behave like idiots so the villain can escape again and again. But it can be done well, or done poorly. And the Flash series has done it quite poorly this season. If our heroes had even given LIP SERVICE to the worry that Zoom might return, I probably would have been happy with what happened. But they didn't. They acted like idiots instead. Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Walsh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 They raise the stakes to incredible levels, with millions of lives hanging in the balance. And then the heroes go off and party. It just makes no sense, no matter how you look at it. "Yay, we defeated the megalomaniacal psychopath's cannon fodder! Let's party!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Walsh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 And while we're about it, why would anyone agree to work for Zoom under any circumstances? He's happy to kill his minions or get them killed. What possible incentive could there be to do his bidding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 And while we're about it, why would anyone agree to work for Zoom under any circumstances? He's happy to kill his minions or get them killed. What possible incentive could there be to do his bidding? A really great pension plan, free dental, and full health insurance. It's a Minion Guild requirement. Joe Walsh and Enforcer84 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted May 22, 2016 Report Share Posted May 22, 2016 And while we're about it, why would anyone agree to work for Zoom under any circumstances? He's happy to kill his minions or get them killed. What possible incentive could there be to do his bidding? What incentive is there for someone to dig his own grave for the guy pointing a gun at him? He isn't killing you RIGHT NOW. He might kill you (or get you killed tomorrow or next week), but for the moment, you're still alive. Joe Walsh, Beast and slikmar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted May 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 And while we're about it, why would anyone agree to work for Zoom under any circumstances? He's happy to kill his minions or get them killed. What possible incentive could there be to do his bidding? As Taskmaster said when reviewing applications for his school of thugs, "Intelligence is too high. Almost normal." Joe Walsh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 23, 2016 Report Share Posted May 23, 2016 It has long been understood/acknowledged, at least by Champions' original creators, that RPG sessions make for lousy comic (and by extension tv or movie) stories. One of the reasons for that is that highly effective play by smart players (call it "power-gaming" if you must) is a great way to "win the game," but not a great way to write a story with a classic (and therefore classically satisfying) dramatic arc. Unfortunately, while tv writers are (usually) very familiar with classic dramatic structure, they are woefully behind the curve when it comes to creative and/or optimal use of super powers, and not nearly experienced or savvy enough to work out the logical consequences of the super power usage they do write into their scripts. TV writers are the problem? What has prevented speedsters in the comics killing off massive numbers of people in the same manner. The Reverse Flash in the comics comes from the future, so should be able to achieve this. He knows Flash was Barry Allen. For that matter, why doesn't Reverse Flash keep retreating to his own time, resting, recovering and then coming back 1 second later in the Flash timeline to try again. Why doesn't Kang do this to the Avengers, or the DC time travellers in Justice League? Why do they ever come in themselves? Because, as you say, power gaming makes for boring reading, watching or gaming. Why did Zoom send one minion at a time? He has plenty. Why didn't he send them at Barry one after the other, or all at once, and take him out from exhaustion, if nothing else? Why not just take an Earth Two nuke and lob it through a breach? No more Barry Allen - no more Central City! Mighty short Season 2, though. DasBroot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 Actually, I look at your examples, Hugh, and where others see boring power-gamer scenarios I see interesting writing challenges. I'm convinced that many of those are adaptable to fascinating episodes in the right hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 I believe it is Steve Engelhart who once published a disagreement with that conclusion. I think he was the author who posited Kang retreating and returning ad infinitum. How would he be defeated without carrying the Stupid Ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 24, 2016 Report Share Posted May 24, 2016 Well, any solution I come up with for that problem could just be undone by the next writer who comes along. But barring that meta-eventuality, I think someone (more talented than I) could devise a decent storyline wherein the Time gem is used to trap Kang in a harmless (to the 616 continuity) infinite loop, Groundhog Day style, but with no escape clause. I'm sure that if I spent a weekend retreat with a few other creative minds at Marvel, I could come up with more ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Ok, the finale was much better than I thought it would be. As always, there were some flaws, but I liked the first 90% of it, and laughed hard at the exchange between Harry and Cisco "Don't you know how to work with a tool?" "I'm working with one now" The idea that Barry's time remnant was willing to give his life makes perfect sense heroically speaking. now I was with Joe and Harry in thinking that Barry shouldn't race when he's going to be used as a power source.... but obviously the script ain't going to let anything else work. I'm okay with that. Rolling with it. Then bam.... Barry breaks the big rule. Oy. ah well Shipp as the real Jay made me smile. But the writers need to stop with having half of Barry's problems coming from him being stupid/stubborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 So next year is a possible setup to be Flashpoint , with none of the other characters from that story being able to appear. I'll have to be very bored to start watching again next season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 After watching the last minute of Flash season 2, do I need to watch Arrow's season final tomorrow? A: nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasBroot Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Sigh That is all. The writers haven't painted themselves into a corner so much as doused the room with gasoline and tinder and then accidentally lit it on fire from the farthest corner from the door. I know this is a similar premise to Flashpoint and didn't mind Flashpoint - but for some reason this just annoys me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I'm wondering if this Flashpoint angle isn't going to be used to somehow merge Supergirl's setting with the regular CW . If that's the case, it could be pushed by the network. I liked this season, particularly the first two thirds of it... the last five or so episodes (with one or two exceptions) however were really weak, and the finale, while it had its moments, did not instill confidence. If Season One was a 9, this was probably a 7 for me. That kind of makes sense, as I wasn't crazy about season 2 of arrow IIRC. I'll be back for Season 3. I know others won't, and that's understandable after the aforementioned dive in story for the last part of the season 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 i think it's entirely possible that Earth 3 is the Supergirl universe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slikmar Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I'm wondering if this Flashpoint angle isn't going to be used to somehow merge Supergirl's setting with the regular CW . If that's the case, it could be pushed by the network. I liked this season, particularly the first two thirds of it... the last five or so episodes (with one or two exceptions) however were really weak, and the finale, while it had its moments, did not instill confidence. If Season One was a 9, this was probably a 7 for me. That kind of makes sense, as I wasn't crazy about season 2 of arrow IIRC. I'll be back for Season 3. I know others won't, and that's understandable after the aforementioned dive in story for the last part of the sea I'm wondering if this Flashpoint angle isn't going to be used to somehow merge Supergirl's setting with the regular CW . If that's the case, it could be pushed by the network. I liked this season, particularly the first two thirds of it... the last five or so episodes (with one or two exceptions) however were really weak, and the finale, while it had its moments, did not instill confidence. If Season One was a 9, this was probably a 7 for me. That kind of makes sense, as I wasn't crazy about season 2 of arrow IIRC. I'll be back for Season 3. I know others won't, and that's understandable after the aforementioned dive in story for the last part of the season 2. That was my thought. Especially with the article about their being a 4 show crossover with Arrow, Flash, Supergirl and LofT. i think it's entirely possible that Earth 3 is the Supergirl universe Except, other then Superman, they never commented on any other supers, and Garrick's Flash seems like it might have been noticed. I think earth 3 may be the one Hourman came from, the world of the actual Justice Society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdamnhero Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 I thought the finale had some good moments. Still an awful lot of idiot ball being passed around, but the character work mostly makes up for it for me. No idea what they're going to do with Season 3, but I'm hoping this will be an excuse to make things a little less grimdark. Also it cracks me up that the CW is already using Supergirl clips in their advertising... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 Superhero shows on TV... I'll watch them. I don't analyze or critique them. I just enjoy that they're on. It's that or have to watch all the other craptasticness that's on the air. Ternaugh and bigdamnhero 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zslane Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 After two seasons of senseless melodrama, I have to say that Barry makes no sense to me as a character. He was raised by a loving foster family. He still has a loving foster father, an adoring girlfriend, a half step-brother who idolizes him, and friends who would probably die for him. And yet he remains so "torn up" emotionally that he can not even feel the love anyone has for him and must...oh bother. It is every bit as insipid as portraying Batman as a grown-ass man who is still so tortured by the distant death of his parents that he is practically psychotic himself. Back when Bob Kane invented the character, the death of the elder Waynes was merely prologue, a way to explain Bruce's dedication to fighting crime. But the original incarnation grew up to be an emotionally stable adult who became the world's greatest detective and a respected crime fighter. When did our culture become so attached to this idea that our superheroes have to be so psychologically fragile and emotionally destroyed that they hardly resemble real human beings anymore? It is with great relief that I delete this show from my DVR. And not out of hatred, but out of deep, deep disappointment. Enforcer84 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted May 27, 2016 Report Share Posted May 27, 2016 When did our culture become so attached to this idea that our superheroes have to be so psychologically fragile and emotionally destroyed that they hardly resemble real human beings anymore? About the same time "reality" TV became popular? Soap opera? Sitcoms? Romantic Comedy? As a culture, we have become lazy and hungry for whatever is there to fill the dark hours of the evening with entertainment. That doesn't always apply to the individual, but that is where we are on the cultural level. People rarely act in reality, as characters are portrayed on screen. There is an almost deliberate cognitive dissonance going on there. In the case of the psychological fragility you mention, I think that it is a lazy shorthand to show the audience that, aside from their super-powers, characters like the Flash are basically human. An hourly, episodic show that features superheroic hijinks and features an ensemble cast is not going to be able to plumb the depth of nuance to show a real personality. They have to use benchmarks like personal tragedy as the basis for motivation. The problem arises when those benchmarks get stuck like a phonograph on a scratched record and keep repeating themselves. The best TV shows establish new benchmarks, preferably in the least ham-fisted way as possible. Barry is written as trapped in that moment when his mother died. There was an entire episode where that was supposedly put to bed. Now, with the finale, we find that isn't the case. It was disappointing that we, the audience, have to continue living in that moment for another season (or as you chose, check out). One of the reasons I liked the earlier seasons of Arrow so much is that the flashback mechanic was used to show that there was an evolving series of benchmarks that drove Oliver Queen. The latest season's authors seemed to misunderstand that past may be prologue, but it doesn't need to be directly be relevant to the present. It felt forced. Barry doesn't have that mysterious five year window to explore, but he does have a couple of seasons worth of motivation behind him. The mother thing should just be put to rest. I will tune in next season, but I am not really excited about it. Maybe we will get Earth-3,256,001's Harrison Wells to visit this time. To make him different, we'll give him a new haircut and have him render all his lines as if he is living in a musical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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