Daemon = Spirit (but not evil)?

[Steve]

I came across the term "daemon" in my readings today, that it is merely an ancient term for a spirit (and sometimes spelled "daimon").

 

So, a daemon is not necessarily evil? There can be good daemons and evil daemons?

[stardogchamp]

I first heard this term used in Walter Jon Williams' novel Aristoi :

The Aristoi (and some others) can split their minds into daimones, or "limited personalities", all which can operate as independent mental entities guided by the will of the main 'self' of the Aristos.

So in this case it's mostly referring to multiple personalities that have been cultivated to have their own unique personalities.

[Greywind]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/daemon?s=t

[Lord Liaden]

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/daimon.html

[Lucius]

 

Try looking up agathodaemon, or eudaemon.

 

Words often change denotation and even more often change connotation. Consider the word "ghost" for example. In Christianity one of the Aspects of their Deity is called "Holy Ghost" but that doesn't imply He's dead (He DID die of course, but that was in another Aspect and has nothing to do with why one Aspect is called "Holy Ghost.")

 

Sometimes even the spelling "demon" is used for good or neutral spirits, but spelled that way it usually means an evil being. "Daemon" is often used to distinguish a not-necessarily-evil sort of spirit.

 

Funny how a minor detail of spelling is used as a moral marker....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

"Are you a good daemon or a bad demon?" asked the palindromedary, and Dorothy responded "I'm not a demon at all- I'm a little girl."

[Greywind]

[Lord Liaden]

Words often change denotation and even more often change connotation. Consider the word "ghost" for example. In Christianity one of the Aspects of their Deity is called "Holy Ghost" but that doesn't imply He's dead (He DID die of course, but that was in another Aspect and has nothing to do with why one Aspect is called "Holy Ghost.")

 

Although the Greek word pneuma as appearing in early Bible texts translates as both "ghost" and "spirit," for decades now the latter has been the preferred translation and designation for the Holy Spirit, due to the negative connotations with the word "ghost."

[bigbywolfe]

I have seen urban fantasy settings that include Christian aspects differentiate between "deamons", which were always considered bad by the church, but included mischievous spirits, old pagan gods and monsters, some fey like beings, and  such, and "The Fallen" being the 1/3 of the Heavenly Host that rebelled and are what Christians generally consider demons (and all false gods/evil spirits/fake ghosts/et cetera) to be.  I have no problem with good or alignment neutral "deamons", but the term will rub some people the wrong way so I tend to not use it if I am running a game.

[Badger]

Try looking up agathodaemon, or eudaemon.

 

Words often change denotation and even more often change connotation. Consider the word "ghost" for example. In Christianity one of the Aspects of their Deity is called "Holy Ghost" but that doesn't imply He's dead (He DID die of course, but that was in another Aspect and has nothing to do with why one Aspect is called "Holy Ghost.")

 

Sometimes even the spelling "demon" is used for good or neutral spirits, but spelled that way it usually means an evil being. "Daemon" is often used to distinguish a not-necessarily-evil sort of spirit.

 

Funny how a minor detail of spelling is used as a moral marker....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

"Are you a good daemon or a bad demon?" asked the palindromedary, and Dorothy responded "I'm not a demon at all- I'm a little girl."

Also to mention:  Would the qualities of a "demon" in one culture, be the same as the qualities of a "demon" from another culture?

 

For a demon in Christianity, no, they would have to be evil by definition.   But, is every culture's "demon" described as a fallen rebellious angel, or an evil spirit residing in hell?

[Badger]

I have seen urban fantasy settings that include Christian aspects differentiate between "deamons", which were always considered bad by the church, but included mischievous spirits, old pagan gods and monsters, some fey like beings, and  such, and "The Fallen" being the 1/3 of the Heavenly Host that rebelled and are what Christians generally consider demons (and all false gods/evil spirits/fake ghosts/et cetera) to be.  I have no problem with good or alignment neutral "deamons", but the term will rub some people the wrong way so I tend to not use it if I am running a game.

I see I got beat by a few seconds.  Essentially what I was trying to say.  Also, I am not too nuanced on it, but what of Asian concepts of demons.  How do they follow in comparison to Western cultures.

[Greywind]

Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni

[Badger]

Yeah, I've read about oni a little.   One of the see also's  wasthe "yokai" although it seems to sometimes get translated as "demon" at least in some ways seem to make me think them as the Eastern equivalent of "fey".

 

I guess it goes back to:  What qualifies as "demon"?   Just fallen angels/denizens of hell?  Or do we add the fey?  Or elves? Or ogres and trolls?  Or ghosts? etc, etc.

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is IMO:  Fallen angels=evil.  Most of the others might fall all over the spectrum as Good, Evil, Neutral, and maybe some in a different morality spectrum entirely.

[Lord Liaden]

I see I got beat by a few seconds.  Essentially what I was trying to say.  Also, I am not too nuanced on it, but what of Asian concepts of demons.  How do they follow in comparison to Western cultures.

 

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/asuras.html

 

The asuras of the Hindu religion generally oppose the devas, or gods, but not always. And while some of them are indeed depicted as evil, others are the epitome of Hindu piety, and gain great power thereby. Being a "demon" in Hinduism seems more a matter of classification and function than temperament.

 

BTW Champions Worlwide gives us Survalesh, an asura on Earth, who definitely is evil. He became bored with his task of tormenting the spirits of the wicked in Naraka (the Hindu hell) and thought that making the living suffer would be more fun.

[Lucius]

Although the Greek word pneuma as appearing in early Bible texts translates as both "ghost" and "spirit," for decades now the latter has been the preferred translation and designation for the Holy Spirit, due to the negative connotations with the word "ghost."

Around here I still sometimes hear Holy Ghost.

 

I guess my point was that it shouldn't be surprising to find that a word such as "demon" can change meanings or have different meanings. Even when it comes to spirits, the Holy Spirit is one thing, your school spirit is something else, and still another kind of spirit came from my grandfather's still.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A hundred years from now, what might "palindromedary" mean?

[dmjalund]

If I had a pet daemon, I'd name him Matt

[Lord Liaden]

Yeah, I've read about oni a little.   One of the see also's  wasthe "yokai" although it seems to sometimes get translated as "demon" at least in some ways seem to make me think them as the Eastern equivalent of "fey".

 

I guess it goes back to:  What qualifies as "demon"?   Just fallen angels/denizens of hell?  Or do we add the fey?  Or elves? Or ogres and trolls?  Or ghosts? etc, etc.

 

 

I guess what it comes down to is IMO:  Fallen angels=evil.  Most of the others might fall all over the spectrum as Good, Evil, Neutral, and maybe some in a different morality spectrum entirely.

 

I remember the entry for "Demons" from The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe. After running through the various things that Marvel Comics have called "demons" over the decades -- denizens of Judeo-Christian-ish "hells," monsters from various mythologies, elder gods and their servants, extra-dimensional horrors -- the entry concluded that ultimately, a demon may be anything that says he, she, or it is one.

[Christopher]

I came across the term "daemon" in my readings today, that it is merely an ancient term for a spirit (and sometimes spelled "daimon").

 

So, a daemon is not necessarily evil? There can be good daemons and evil daemons?

I find the DSD Daemon rather cute.

 

I also have used Daemon Tools, even for completely legal actvities.

 

And finally as Programmer and Adminsitrator I find Daemons quite usefull. Even if they are called "Services" under Windows and are sometimes used for Malcious tasks.

 

Daemon (background Programms) are named after "Maxwels Daemon" (though experiment about 2nd rule of Thermodynamics). Wich in turn is based on the Greek Defnition of Daemon, wich is a neutral to benevolent entity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28classical_mythology%29

[Greywind]

Within Robert Asprin's Myth Adventures, a "demon" is merely a dimension traveler. Any creature outside its home dimension is a demon.

[Steve]

I think I might call individual subroutines in the AI daemons, since it sounds like that is what they are called in regular computer programming.

 

Perhaps different types of programs could have different names. In a world with magical AI, what might viruses be called? Demons?

[Lord Liaden]

Gremlins.

[Steve]

That's a pretty good idea, LL.

[Christopher]

I think I might call individual subroutines in the AI daemons, since it sounds like that is what they are called in regular computer programming.

 

Perhaps different types of programs could have different names. In a world with magical AI, what might viruses be called? Demons?

Daemon would be a very offensive racial slur towards AI's. As Chrome Coybow tells a medival child/god:

"And don't call a multi-agent cognitive architecture a deamon, boy. It's insulting."

Despite the comic being rather wierd, this could indeed be seen as somethign racially offensive.

A deamon is a normal, dumb procedual programm. It's about as far from AI as a bacterium is from Humansentience.

 

Actually the Loa from Sword of the Stars verse (Machine rebelleion with some time to develop out of thier "kill all organics" phase) regard is as offensive to be called Aritifical:

"The majority of Loa consider the phrase “artificial intelligence” to be a racist insult, and argue that there is nothing “artificial” about their sapience. On the contrary, the Loa regard themselves the products of evolution like any other life form, equal to or superior to the carbon-based life forms which were their ancestors."

 

And magitek viruses might be called Zombies (because they are infectous). Granted, "Zombie" is also already used in Computer Science.:

"In computer science, a zombie is a computer connected to the Internet that has been compromised by a hacker, computer virus or trojan horse and can be used to perform malicious tasks of one sort or another under remote direction. Botnets of zombie computers are often used to spread e-mail spam and launch denial-of-service attacks. Most owners of zombie computers are unaware that their system is being used in this way. Because the owner tends to be unaware, these computers are metaphorically compared to zombies."

[Steve]

Gremlins and Zombies sound like decent names to use for viruses and infected AIs.

 

"Argh! My secretary's AI was infected by gremlins. She's a zombie now until I can get them exorcised. Know a good gremlin exorcist?"

[DusterBoy]

I believe it was Socrates who said he behaved well because that he believed he had a daimon whose good opinion was worth having.

 

*lightbulb* Which means Jiminy Cricket was Pinocchio's daimon, only corporeal.