smount83 Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I am new to GMing, I am also new to both of these systems, I am planning on creating a Sci Fi setting from scratch. I know this will be a lot of work, and reading. I have asked the people who are wanting to play in this game ( which we are aiming to be playing a long time ) many questions about what they want. These are a few types of things they want. A quick and understandable battle system ( after being learned, of course ), Highly adaptable character creation, More of a 'Role Playing' type game, ( more Star Trek, than Star Wars ) Limited or no reduced abilities from damage. I have collaborated on homemade RPGs and got tired of the lack of a stable game system to develop stories with. I am planning for this to be a long term project so any recommendations would help ( I hope, anyways ) Also, if I do decide on Hero, which book should I start with Hero System 6th basic or Champions Complete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hero, of course. The book you'll want to start with is Champions Complete. I would recommend HERO System Sixth Edition vols. 1 and 2 but they're out of print (but they are available in PDF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 If you're gonna do a science fiction setting, I'd strongly recommend picking up Star Hero. Even if you go with gurps, Star Hero will be a useful resource. The reverse is also true; I've found gurps Space useful even though I don't play gurps. And the planetology info in gurps Traveller's First In (the Imperial Scout Service book) is second to none. (Also, you might want to go check out all the awesome SF settings from Blackwyrm Games.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I'll pitch in my two cents, coming from someone who has played Hero System since the mid-80s. I've also played GURPS among many other systems. Hero does have a quick and understandable combat system, and I've been able to explain it to new players in only a few minutes. Hero has the most adaptable character creation system that I've ever seen. It is also the most balanced system that I know of if you want to get in "under the hood" and create homebrew abilities and special setting rules that will mesh with the standard rules. I've found the character creation system to be an enhancement to roleplaying because it encourages players to come up with dramatic complications for their characters, from personality motivations to friends and enemies. Unless you use the optional wounding and disabling rules, a character at full health fights as well as a heavily injured character. This promotes a more cinematic experience. More realistic and gritty simulations are possible by adding the wounding and disabling options. You can start with Hero with Champions Complete, which has the complete rule set. The two books for 6E expand on that with a tremendous amount of examples and explanations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 You are going to want: Champions complete Star hero Hero system vehicles (is that out yet) Hero system martial arts (because its awesome) The ultimate mentalist (if you plan to include psionics. a must have book if you do) Books from the 5th edition that will be invaluable: Terran empire (maybe. its a fully fleshed out space opera campaign setting. lots of ideas to add to your own) Worlds of the empire (ready made planets to drop into your setting. invaluable to keep you from having to design your own worlds. i also recommend the GURPS space atlas books...all 4. that will give you more than enough worlds to populate your campaign with) Spacer's toolkit Other game system books for reference: GURPS Space atlas 1-4 (mentioned above) Battlelords of the 23rd century: lock and load (this one book includes all the equipment and weapons you will ever need. you will have to convert them, but once you understand the system its not a huge issue.) Battlelords: uncle ernie's minions of doom (a book of nasty alien beasties you can use. you'll have to convert, but the book is chocked full of inspirational material) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Keep in mind that w.hichever system you go with, books published by the other company can still be very valuable. I realize this is what everyone else is saying, but I want to amplify it. Don't let the fact Champions Complete is written from a comic book superhero point of view put you off, the underlying system can and has worked well for decades for every kind of adventure you can imagine. Lucius Alexander Palindromedary Enterprises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Don't let the fact Champions Complete is written from a comic book superhero point of view put you off, the underlying system can and has worked well for decades for every kind of adventure you can imagine. And, probably, some you can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Non-euclidean adventures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 One of the big differences I noticed with playing both GURPS and Hero was that GURPS defaulted to a grittier, less cinematic feel in its mechanics and Hero defaulted to a more cinematic feel. It sounds like the OP wants a more cinematic feeling, so Hero would be a better fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 I agree completely and was just talking with my brother about this as we plan or games for Norwescon trying to figure out what to play/gm. We decided on Hero and my own game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smount83 Posted February 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Hero, of course. The book you'll want to start with is Champions Complete. I would recommend HERO System Sixth Edition vols. 1 and 2 but they're out of print (but they are available in PDF). I have Champions Complete and the 2 core books, just glad to know that CC will work for a good starter if I need it. If you're gonna do a science fiction setting, I'd strongly recommend picking up Star Hero. Even if you go with gurps, Star Hero will be a useful resource. The reverse is also true; I've found gurps Space useful even though I don't play gurps. And the planetology info in gurps Traveller's First In (the Imperial Scout Service book) is second to none. (Also, you might want to go check out all the awesome SF settings from Blackwyrm Games.) From what I've heard so far, it will be likely I will pick up both books, just for the awesome amount of info in both. Thanks for the Blackwyrm tip though. I'll pitch in my two cents, coming from someone who has played Hero System since the mid-80s. I've also played GURPS among many other systems. Hero does have a quick and understandable combat system, and I've been able to explain it to new players in only a few minutes. Hero has the most adaptable character creation system that I've ever seen. It is also the most balanced system that I know of if you want to get in "under the hood" and create homebrew abilities and special setting rules that will mesh with the standard rules. I've found the character creation system to be an enhancement to roleplaying because it encourages players to come up with dramatic complications for their characters, from personality motivations to friends and enemies. Unless you use the optional wounding and disabling rules, a character at full health fights as well as a heavily injured character. This promotes a more cinematic experience. More realistic and gritty simulations are possible by adding the wounding and disabling options. You can start with Hero with Champions Complete, which has the complete rule set. The two books for 6E expand on that with a tremendous amount of examples and explanations. It's good to know this is a system that can be quickly picked up, hopefully I will be able to do that. From what I can tell, Hero characters grow (or level, depending on the game you use) to the point where the characters will eventually outgrow the capabilities of their base race or piers, where Gurps characters maintain their race characteristics while adding on their skills on an external level. You are going to want: Champions complete Star hero Hero system vehicles (is that out yet) Hero system martial arts (because its awesome) The ultimate mentalist (if you plan to include psionics. a must have book if you do) Books from the 5th edition that will be invaluable: Terran empire (maybe. its a fully fleshed out space opera campaign setting. lots of ideas to add to your own) Worlds of the empire (ready made planets to drop into your setting. invaluable to keep you from having to design your own worlds. i also recommend the GURPS space atlas books...all 4. that will give you more than enough worlds to populate your campaign with) Spacer's toolkit Other game system books for reference: GURPS Space atlas 1-4 (mentioned above) Battlelords of the 23rd century: lock and load (this one book includes all the equipment and weapons you will ever need. you will have to convert them, but once you understand the system its not a huge issue.) Battlelords: uncle ernie's minions of doom (a book of nasty alien beasties you can use. you'll have to convert, but the book is chocked full of inspirational material) Thanks, I will be looking into all of these resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 A quick and understandable battle system ( after being learned, of course ), Highly adaptable character creation, More of a 'Role Playing' type game, ( more Star Trek, than Star Wars ) Limited or no reduced abilities from damage. 1) Go to the Downloads section under 6th Edition Documents, there is one titled "Hero in 2 Pages" that gives a nutshell how to play using the Hero System. In Hero the playing of the game is stupidly simple. It is the character/villain/everything else creation that can get a bit pesky. 2) HERO (regardless of version CC, 6th or 5th) literally allows the creation of anything you can think of without the need for any other book. Other books are nice and help, but not required. 3) HERO is pretty much like any other success roll system out there as far as game mechanics go. But it is unique in easily scaling everything allowing you to control the need for die rolls. For instance take skills. Most games define their skills very specifically. Hero groups its skills and lets you define them with as much or as little detail as you want. In my Supers games my detective style supers have "Forensics" which covers everything seen on CSI plus the autopsy. But for a more street level game I will break it up from one overall skill to separate component skills. Everything in Hero can be easily scaled by the GM to determine just how often you wnat them to have to roll a die. 4) Already there. Unless you create the "limit" a characters abilities/powers/talents are not directly impacted by the damage they take. I mean Superdude may get knocked out or too tired to fire his heat-vision beam, but being hammered will not "break" the heat-vision. Though you can make it breakable if you want. Remember that in Hero everything, characters, weapons, vehicles and all equipment are built using the same rules. Want "Limited or no reduced abilities from damage"? Just build them that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Baker Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 My personal (biased) opinion says--Hero System all the way! Outside of my opinion I just wanted to say that I agree with all of the well-reasoned comments everyone else has made. I also would like to note that, even though I play Hero, I have a shelf of GURPS, and shelves of other games products that can serve as inspiration for what I want to do in Hero System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smount83 Posted February 15, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Thanks for the links to those base rules. That will be helpful . I will probably be getting alot of book from both Hero and Gurps, just for reference along, due to the high quality they offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonPacker Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Being a fan of both systems, I would say that GURPS might actually do Sci Fi better than Hero. Hear me out here... As much as I love Hero, there's a real lack of granularity at the low, heroic levels. Certainly less so than GURPS. While I find Hero to be broadly flexible, and certainly more amenable to cinematic, Space Opera style play, I do find myself chafing against the lack of significant difference between various primary attributes in the 10-20 range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 Being a fan of both systems, I would say that GURPS might actually do Sci Fi better than Hero. Hear me out here... As much as I love Hero, there's a real lack of granularity at the low, heroic levels. Certainly less so than GURPS. While I find Hero to be broadly flexible, and certainly more amenable to cinematic, Space Opera style play, I do find myself chafing against the lack of significant difference between various primary attributes in the 10-20 range. I understand what you're saying, but I haven't had an issue. In fact I find that Hero gets too gritty and dangerous at the heroic levels. But for the lack of significant difference in attributes I don't see it being that much different than most of the other games in their primary ranges. But I understand it may not click for you. One of the reasons I don't play M&M anymore is that their Conditions just don't seem to work smoothly for me. Doesn't mean they don't work, just that they don't feel right to me in play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smount83 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I am currently at the point of leaning more towards GURPS, I feel like I haven't gotten enough info about Hero to finalize my decision though. I will say so far, the only thing that is keeping my interest toward Hero over Gurps is that Hero has more of an open developing system where it seems that Gurps developing will consist of taking something that might be close but not exactly what I want, and make it work. I understand that can be an easier way to go about things, but with my players, they will want to make sure that what they can do is exactly what they think they can do. So, a question I have is how easy will it o be to create a skill or ability with Hero from scratch compared to Gurps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 There is already a pretty extensive list of Skills in HERO. I think you would be hard pressed to find a skill not covered somewhere. Now, if you're talking Powers and Abilities, there are resources to assist (not least of which is this board) building anything. And you will find that you will get multiple different answers on a "how to" question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smount83 Posted February 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I think I'm not understanding what 'Body' is supposed to represent in damage and still not sure on how killing and stun damage is determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 Hero allows you to make pretty much any ability you want using the standard skills and powers in its core rules. One of the issues I had with earlier versions of GURPS was that there was no standard core that you could take to build non-standard abilities. Each sourcebook added in special talents you could put on a character sheet, but I was never sure why the cost was X number of points. With Hero, every new ability could be developed and the cost calculated consistent with core rules costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Ciaramella Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 GURPS gives you a campaign with a flavor like that of say... Babylon 5. Hero on the other hand, ends up more epic... say Star Wars. Both are worthy for running a Sci-Fi game... it all depends on what you are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I am currently at the point of leaning more towards GURPS, I feel like I haven't gotten enough info about Hero to finalize my decision though. I will say so far, the only thing that is keeping my interest toward Hero over Gurps is that Hero has more of an open developing system where it seems that Gurps developing will consist of taking something that might be close but not exactly what I want, and make it work. I understand that can be an easier way to go about things, but with my players, they will want to make sure that what they can do is exactly what they think they can do. So, a question I have is how easy will it o be to create a skill or ability with Hero from scratch compared to Gurps? Once you decipher the system, HERO allows you to build anything you want without having to pull something out of the ether. And it's easy to balance said powers and abilities one you know the system dynamics. And HERO makes for a damned fine Sci-fi/Space Opera type system. I created my own Space Opera campaign setting using HERO and it turned out great. Because of the ability to use the powers construction system to create weapons/armor/equipment, you can give it any tech-level you desire. (I had several tech levels interacting with one another in my setting) I also deliberated between HERO and GURPS when it came to my space opera setting and eventually HERO won out. The system of speed/action, Martial Arts and how Mental Power worked (and powers construction in general) won me over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I think I'm not understanding what 'Body' is supposed to represent in damage and still not sure on how killing and stun damage is determined. BODY is what it takes to kill you, mostly in the form of physical trauma (broken bones, hemorrhaging internal organs, acid burns, and so on). STUN can be thought of as temporary disturbances in how your body functions -- a hard punch to the face can leave you disoriented, a kick to the stomach leaves you winded ... Basically, there are two ways to roll damage -- Normal Damage and Killing Damage. Normal means you take the dice indicated by the Power (say, a 6d6 Blast) and roll them. The number of pips is the total STUN dealt (pre-defenses), and a 1 deals 0 BODY damage, 2-5 deals 1 BODY, and a 6 deals 2. Basic Killing Damage means you roll the dice, and the total is the BODY dealt. Then roll ½d6 (i.e., a d3) and multiply the BODY damage by that for the number of STUN points dealt. The rest is gravy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I am currently at the point of leaning more towards GURPS, I feel like I haven't gotten enough info about Hero to finalize my decision though. I will say so far, the only thing that is keeping my interest toward Hero over Gurps is that Hero has more of an open developing system where it seems that Gurps developing will consist of taking something that might be close but not exactly what I want, and make it work. I understand that can be an easier way to go about things, but with my players, they will want to make sure that what they can do is exactly what they think they can do. So, a question I have is how easy will it o be to create a skill or ability with Hero from scratch compared to Gurps? HERO is designed from it's core book for the GM to customize it. And by customize it, I mean make anything. There is nothing in Star Hero or Fantasy Hero that cannot be made using the core book. What books like Star Hero and Fantasy Hero give you is guidance on how to make games in that Genre and many examples of things from that Genre. But in the end, all you need is the core book. GURPs gives you a basic play system but you have to buy additional books to do other things. I like to use computer game as an example. When I was playing GURPs and we wanted to have Mages and magic in the world, the info in the core book was so sparse and they do not give you the source document so we had to buy GURPs Magic. GURPs is a universal game IF you purchase all the books related to the Genre you wnat to play. This is how I explain it using computer games. If I buy Medal of Honor I get Medal of Honor (GURPs/Traveller/etc = prebuilt game) If I buy Oblivion I get Oblivion (D&D/GURPs etc = prebuilt game) If I want to play Medal of Honor with Dragons, I am out of luck. I can look for another game (GURPs Sourcebook for a prebuilt game). If I buy Hero I get the source-code to WRITE Oblivion, Medal of Honor or any other game I can think of.A lot of people do not like HERO because it isn't playable out of the box like many of the others. But that is because it assumes the GM does not want completely prebuilt worlds and will take the time to create their own. Also remember that world building/character creation and in-game play are two different things. Hero in-game play has a single game mechanic used for everything. 3d6 roll low, 3 is great, 18 is bad. Combat rolls, skill rolls, power effect rolls and so on all use the same die mechanic. Hero character/creature/equipment/power/talent creation uses all the same rules. Because Hero started out as a supers game, addressing the need to be able to simulate any power concept while avoiding endless prepackaged 'lists', Hero created a unified "source-code" for gaming. In a nutshell: If you want a game that supports universal genre support allowing you to create literally anything you want to do, you buy Hero. If you want a universal game where someone else created everything but you have to buy each book to support the genre you want to play, you buy GURPs (this is based on the version of GURPs I have played). Neither game is better that the other, it all comes down to what you want to be able to do or not do. I think I'm not understanding what 'Body' is supposed to represent in damage and still not sure on how killing and stun damage is determined. Body is the characteristic that represents physical bodily damage. Stun is the characteristic that represents you ability to stay conscious and focused. Loss of Body kills you Loss of Stun knocks you out. All damage rolls can inflict Stun and body, but they do it by two different calculations. Normal attacks do the face value of the die roll as stun and then 'count body' where each 6 = 2, 5-2 = 1 and 1 = 0. Example: 3d6 rolls 3, 3, 5 = 11 Stun and 3 body. 3d6 rolls 1, 1, 4 = 6 stun and 1 body. 2d6 rolls 2, 6, 6 = 14 stun and 5 body. Killing Attacks compute with the face value being Body and stun is calculated via multiplier. The base line multiplier is 1d6-1 minimum of 1. Example: 3d6KA rolls 3, 3, 5 = 11 Body, roll multiplier 1d6 for 4 (-1) = 3. 3x11 = 33 Stun 3d6KA rolls 1, 1, 4 = 6 Body, roll multiplier 1d6 for 4 (-1) = 3. 3x6 = 18 Stun. But remember that the Base Multiplier is only one option of many. Using a hot location chart will eliminate the multiplier die in favor of a location multiplier. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 Observe that the STUN Multiplier is ½d6 for 6Ed and 1d6-1 for 5Ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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