True Faith

[Steve]

In White Wolf's urban gothic world, humans with True Faith can do things like turn vampires by wielding a holy symbol.

 

In an urban fantasy, how might True Faith be portrayed as a character ability? A Perk? Individual powers, maybe with an EGO roll as a required skill roll?

[NuSoardGraphite]

I would make it a perk. worth between 1pt and 10pts depending on utility.

 

It could also be the basis for powers and talents based on that faith such as extra presence for pre attacks against beings of darkness, power or presence defense, deadly blow vs creatures of darkness (can turn weapons into demon slayers) etc.

[L. Marcus]

... Or, indeed, if most people actually have True Faith, those lacking would have a Physical Complication. And the monsters affected by it would have a corresponding Complication.

[Philip Nicholls]

I would see it more as a Presence only for attacks invoking faith, with certain Monsters having a vulnerability against it, maybe in extreme cases taking body from True Faith Presence Attacks

[DShomshak]

Likewise, I would implement it as various Disadvantages for particular supernatural creatures. To exploit these Disadvantages, though, characters might need traits such as extra PRE (Only for making declarations of faith), and/or Psychological Complications such as Religious Devotion (Common, Strong). Though some creatures might be harmed or hampered by consecrated ground, religious symbols or the sound of church bells without the need for a person of True Faith. It depends on how you want to set up the metaphysics of your world, and how easily you want PCs to exploit religion. In this case, I'd recommend giving the Fae weaknesses against active expressions of faith (it's a feature from many stories) but not against symbols or other paraphernalia. Demons are under perpetual sentence of condemnation, and know it; the Fae are defined in part by their liminality, neither human nor inhuman, blessed nor damned. Even the most terrible Unseelie are forces of Wild Magic, "neither of the Light nor of the Dark nor of Men."

[Steve]

It sounds like a fear-based form of Striking Appearance might work for driving off those affected. Limiting it to requiring a Focus and maybe an Ego roll would make it fairly inexpensive per level.

 

Since a really powerful turning attempt in D&D would vaporize lesser undead, I'm wondering if a Complication could be that undead and demons take damage equal to the amount rolled on the Striking Appearance portion of the PRE attack rather than making it a Susceptability. Example: Father Jones has +6d6 Striking Appearance and rolls 28 points on just those dice. Vampire Vlad takes that as damage.

[IndianaJoe3]

Since a really powerful turning attempt in D&D would vaporize lesser undead, I'm wondering if a Complication could be that undead and demons take damage equal to the amount rolled on the Striking Appearance portion of the PRE attack rather than making it a Susceptability. Example: Father Jones has +6d6 Striking Appearance and rolls 28 points on just those dice. Vampire Vlad takes that as damage.

 

You could model it as a Physical Complication, although a Susceptibility would be more RAW.

 

Destroyed By Faith: Physical Complication (Takes damage from faith-based PRE Attacks as if they were Normal attacks, Frequently, Greatly Impairing). 20 points.

[Lucius]

I've been using Limited PRE with Advantages: Does Knockback and if really powerful Does BOD.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I believe in palindromedaries

[Markdoc]

I'd weigh in on the side of a susceptibility/physical limitation. It's far easier than trying to graft an extra power onto other characters/places.

 

regards, Mark

[Lucius]

 

But that leaves you with the unanswered question of how to define who has "true faith."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary counters that deciding questions like that is what a Game Operations Director is for.

[Markdoc]

That's the case whether it's a susceptibility, or a power which only functions when the PC in question has true faith. 

In general, the willingness to take on the creatures of darkness armed only with two small bits of crossed wood would imply some sort of faith, though.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve]

I like IndianaJoe's Physical Complication write-up because it works along the lines I was thinking of. True Faith, to me, quantifies as a Talent. Having it be a subset of Striking Appearance is just how it seems to work for me. True Faith scares the unholiness out of undead and demons, and so they have a complication that actually burns them when someone confronts them with it.

 

I suppose an argument can be made that a character with True Faith needs a corresponding Psychological Complication to show it, but that depends on how much their faith hinders them. I would suppose that someone could be faithful without requiring a Complication, but that depends on how often it would provide drama.

 

A 2-point level of Striking Appearance (True Faith) seems like a reasonable cost to me. If it only manifests with holy symbols held in hand, then OIF or OAF works. For defense against evil magics, I would propose a type of Combat Luck or maybe even a Force Wall.

 

For holy places or sanctified ground, Change Environment would work. If i remember correctly, each level could have a point of damage built into it. Put four levels of Change Environment (Sanctified) and a vampire or demon would start smoking when they set foot on it.

[Markdoc]

I'm a bit iffy about true faith being something that you buy with points, but which is unattached to the PCs behaviour: that means you could have a cheerfully money-lending, whoring, drunken, blasphemous atheist ... with true faith.

While I guess in theory you could work out suitable fluff for that, it doesn't seem terribly true to source material

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

I'm a bit iffy about true faith being something that you buy with points, but which is unattached to the PCs behaviour: that means you could have a cheerfully money-lending, whoring, drunken, blasphemous atheist ... with true faith.

While I guess in theory you could work out suitable fluff for that, it doesn't seem terribly true to source material

 

cheers, Mark

Constantine.

 

I agree with you to a degree.  I wouldn't like to see True Faith defined as a specific power, because what you can do with True Faith is so nebulous, and thus the actual "True Faith" I would have the character buy it as a Perk.  That would then activate any susceptibilities, vulnerabilities and psychological or physical disadvantages/complications on any creatures the character comes across.  And also gives the excuse for the character to buy powers based on True Faith as the game progresses.  You could define it as a Power Skill I suppose (the skill roll being how strong the characters Faith is) and still leave the effects nebulous and have a base for powers with RSR.

[NuSoardGraphite]

HOW STRONG IS YOUR FAITH?

 

Perk/Skill:

1pt:(8-) The barest hint of any Faith.  Perhaps enough to give a demon pause if he prays for help.  Probably agnostic.

2pts:(9-) Holds to some belief in the divine.  Doesn't attend services or church often (or at all) but occasionally thanks God/Buddah/Allah/Jehovah/Krishna for the occasional blessing or miracle.

3pts:(10-) About the average faith of your typical sunday church goer.  Prays about once or twice a week.  A truly heartfelt prayer can hold a minor demon at bay or attract the attention of a Light Being during times of extreme duress

4pts:(11-) Now we are getting into the faith levels of the truly devout.  This person may receive visions or speak in tongues on very rare occasions.  Their prayers are even answered sometimes, when they are part of the divine plan.

5pts:(12-) As above, but their prayers are answered more often.  Their ability to hold negative entities at bay are pronounced.  This is where your average priest or very, very devout church officer should be.

6pts:(13-) A very devout priest or minister.  The leader of a congregation.  This persons faith is a beacon to beings of light and an anathema to beings of darkness.  This is where I would start allowing Faith based powers.

7pts:(14-) Faith of this level or higher is extremely rare and requires a level of dedication rarely seen.  Demon hunters tend to be in this range because of their experiences and knowledge.  Their ability to repel negative entities is legendary.

8pts:(15-) This is the faith level of world-reknown religious figures who may or may not be in positions of power within their religious orders.  May be capable of performing miracles from time to time, when the need is great.

9pts:(16-) Extraordinarly rare, only a few individuals in the world at any given time have this level of Faith.  They will be famous for the miracles that follow in their wake.  Creatures of darkness cannot stand to be near them.

10pts:(17- or more) Only a few individuals in the history of the world have had this level of Faith.  Entire religions and offshoots arise in their passing.  They can perform miracles daily, are surrounded by Guardians of Light constantly and can destroy Creatures of Darkness with but a glance.  These are the individuals to whom the lesser faithful look up to and aspire to be like.

[Steve]

It almost feels like a Contact by putting it into a skill roll. I suppose true faith could be constructed like a spirit contact. At really powerful levels, it could be an organizational contact.

[Markdoc]

Constantine.

 

I agree with you to a degree.  I wouldn't like to see True Faith defined as a specific power, because what you can do with True Faith is so nebulous, and thus the actual "True Faith" I would have the character buy it as a Perk.  That would then activate any susceptibilities, vulnerabilities and psychological or physical disadvantages/complications on any creatures the character comes across.  And also gives the excuse for the character to buy powers based on True Faith as the game progresses.  You could define it as a Power Skill I suppose (the skill roll being how strong the characters Faith is) and still leave the effects nebulous and have a base for powers with RSR.

 

As Gabriel says when Constantine protests his faith "You don't believe. You know. It's not the same."

 

And as I noted to Lucius, what is "true faith" - even in this limited game setting. It's something that the undead are vulnerable to - that part is easy (it also sounds like a vulnerability). But the other parts that you write (for example) "Only a few individuals in the history of the world have had this level of Faith.  Entire religions and offshoots arise in their passing.  They can perform miracles daily, are surrounded by Guardians of Light constantly and can destroy Creatures of Darkness with but a glance.  These are the individuals to whom the lesser faithful look up to and aspire to be like"

 

Really? I can perform miracles, and gain the adulation of millions, plus a heavenly bodyguard for the cost of +2d6 EB? Hoo boy! Sign me up!

 

This is the problem. Having true faith in itself, actually gives you nothing (well, at least nothing we can measure). It could be that in a tiny village in Macedonia right now, some old woman with perfect faith is drudging through life with a loaned goat and 4 chickens. It's terribly situational and also really hard to define: those are both signs of something that experience says it is a bad thing to try and build as a power. Letting PCs buy it and then treat it the same as acquiring a sidearm, is going to really devalue the entire in-game concept: "True Faith" essentially becomes "Energy blast only vs dark powers".

 

I dunno: I'm just not feeling it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Steve]

Well, it could be a Talent with a limitation requiring that one show "True Faith" or something like is done with divine magic in FH.

 

I suppose that could be done with an Ego roll as a required Limitation and a required character complicaion such as Psychological Complication "Devout (fill in the blank)" Common, Strong. If the character fails their Ego roll when facing a vampire with fangs bared, the special effect is that they've had a crisis of faith. Praying could be constructed as a form of Ego Aid or a temporary bonus to the Ego roll.

 

You could also give any faith-based abilities a Unified Power Limitation. If your faith is shaken, not only can't you turn that vampire but the Combat Luck you've been depending on conks out as well.

[NuSoardGraphite]

As Gabriel says when Constantine protests his faith "You don't believe. You know. It's not the same."

 

And as I noted to Lucius, what is "true faith" - even in this limited game setting. It's something that the undead are vulnerable to - that part is easy (it also sounds like a vulnerability). But the other parts that you write (for example) "Only a few individuals in the history of the world have had this level of Faith.  Entire religions and offshoots arise in their passing.  They can perform miracles daily, are surrounded by Guardians of Light constantly and can destroy Creatures of Darkness with but a glance.  These are the individuals to whom the lesser faithful look up to and aspire to be like"

 

Really? I can perform miracles, and gain the adulation of millions, plus a heavenly bodyguard for the cost of +2d6 EB? Hoo boy! Sign me up!

 

This is the problem. Having true faith in itself, actually gives you nothing (well, at least nothing we can measure). It could be that in a tiny village in Macedonia right now, some old woman with perfect faith is drudging through life with a loaned goat and 4 chickens. It's terribly situational and also really hard to define: those are both signs of something that experience says it is a bad thing to try and build as a power. Letting PCs buy it and then treat it the same as acquiring a sidearm, is going to really devalue the entire in-game concept: "True Faith" essentially becomes "Energy blast only vs dark powers".

 

I dunno: I'm just not feeling it.

 

 

 

cheers, Mark

Then how would you define it for those who wanted it to be a part of their character?

[L. Marcus]

Why not just say "deeply religious" or "very devout" in the character description? Nightcrawler comes to mind.

[Markdoc]

Why not just say "deeply religious" or "very devout" in the character description? Nightcrawler comes to mind.

 

 

Then how would you define it for those who wanted it to be a part of their character?

 

 

Why not just say "deeply religious" or "very devout" in the character description? Nightcrawler comes to mind.

 

Do what L. Marcus suggests - and roleplay it. If a character wants to be devout, let them take the appropriate psych. lim.s and roleplay it.

Yes, I'm aware that is going to place some weight on the shoulders of both the GM and the player, but it should not be insuperable - we've been dealing with the "Only when serving purposes of the god" limitation for divine spellcasters for years. And honestly, it shouldn't even be a problem: roleplaying hooks should be a good thing.

 

If they're good - and play their PCs that way - then evil things find them hard to tolerate. And honestly, if they're not good, and don't play their characters that way, then letting them say they're good, because they paid 5 points for it ... it just tastes bad.

 

cheers, Mark

 

In our current game, I'm playing a paladin. One of the things I like is how the other players just know "how he is". Recently, we wanted to visit a village rumoured to be plagued by vampires -but without stirring up a fuss. My PC went off and managed to get us a job as caravan guards, so that we could arrive inconspicuously (not difficult: the rumours of vampires had made guards hard to come by). When I came back and announced this to the rest of the group, our sorceror made a disgusted face and said "You didn't even ask him about the pay, did you?" And of course, it hadn't even occurred to me. I'm a paladin! Of course I'll help!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Well of course you "roleplay it".  That practically goes without saying.

 

What I'm wondering about is how you deal with an issue in the context of the game where you have a powerful entity that the person with True Faith wishes to effect with said faith?

 

A skill roll give you an indication of what they can accomplish.  A character has a True Faith of 14 or less, but this entity is powerful...-5 to your skill roll!

 

A perk with various levels also gives you an indication of what the character can and cannot effect.  certain beings require higher levels of True Faith to effect.

 

Luck could also be used as a variation on True Faith.  Successful Luck rolls would manifest as minor miracles when needed.  The higher level of luck rolled, the greater and more obvious the miracle.

 

In my experience, when a player tells me they want their character to have something like True Faith, they want it to have a mechanical effect on the game.  If they were just planning to roleplay it, they would simply write it down as a Psychological Complication/Disadvantage and be done with it.  But the fact that they ask about having it as a part of their character informs me that they wish it to have an actual effect in-game.  How is this to be modeled mechanically?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Why not just say "deeply religious" or "very devout" in the character description? Nightcrawler comes to mind.

because in the context of the original post, he obviously wanted to know how you would model it mechanically to have an actual effect in-game.

[Markdoc]

Which brings us back to my original point. If you model the effect as a susceptibility/vulnerability to specific types of people/areas/artifacts then you already know what the effects will be. Building it as a power (or more accurately whole series of different powers) seems like a needlessly complicated way of going about it.

 

Just my opinion, of course: I don't really have any suggestions on how otherwise to model it, because, as suggested, the idea of a power/perk is too diffuse. I mean a perk might be nice ... but what does it actually do? To know how it should be modelled in game, I need to know what the OP wants it to do in-game, and that's likely to be different from power to power.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

I also believe susceptibility and vulnerability to be a good model.

 

But then that begs the question: Who has True Faith?  To whom are Creatures of Darkness susceptible or vulnerable?  If holy or blessed objects can harm them, who can do the blessing?  Any priest?  what of a priest who has lost his or her faith?  Would they then lose their ability to bless objects?

 

Being considered a "consecrated priest" is a Perk.  Thus, I extrapolate that having "True Faith" is also a Perk.

 

Being a priest gives one access to the benefits of membership in a religious organization with the backing said membership implies.

 

Having True Faith generally also gives one access to this membership, though not as deeply as a priest, a member of a congregation or religion could at the very least expect succor, healing, shelter and food.  That's a benefit.  If other members of your faith recognize one with True Faith, they will usually be very willing to provide the character with True Faith with some form of assistance.  Above and beyond that of other strangers they may meet.  That's a benefit.  If blessed or consecrated objects cannot be used by everyone, but someone with True Faith can activate their powers or abilities, that's a major benefit.  I think the above benefits are worthy of a Perk.

 

In some games, being a consecrated priest allows one the ability to perform PRE Attacks against creatures normally immune to PRE attacks (usually various types of undead).  If characters with True Faith can do the same, that's a major benefit.  I believe that is at least worthy of a Perk requirement.

 

Exactly how this is defined should be up to the GM based upon campaign setting at hand. If True Faith is nebulous and has almost no mechanical effect on the game, then simply making it a set of moral complications on your character sheet and roleplaying it probably works for that game.  However, if the campaign includes scenes where characters with True Faith are expected to use it to hold off the hordes of hell, then it needs to have a game effect which means in all likelihood, it needs to be bought with Character Points, unless the GM defines it as an everyman ability that anyone can utilize.  What that game effect is, must then be determined by the GM.  Some GM's may require a Perk so that the character can now use the PRE against undead and demons etc.  Some GM's may want it bought as the Power Skill and will define how it works and utilize the True Faith skill as RSR for powers based on their Faith.  Other GM's may use Luck.  As usual, this being HERO, it can be done in many ways.

 

I'm just figuring out different ways to model a mechanical effect.  "Just roleplay it" is fine, but we already know how to do that, so that leaves figuring out how to model it in the system for those who require it.