Spirit = Bodiless AI?

[Steve]

I had an idea for an indestructible spirit for a horror-themed game, and I think crafting it as an AI is what I am looking for. The AI is its base form, but it can also construct a solid body that it can use to interact with the real world. That solid form can be destroyed, but it just forces the spirit to craft another one, leaving it as a bodiless observer until then.

 

Could this be done with a Multiform-only VPP? The special effect would be that it crafts a human form for itself that it inhabits, but killing the human body does not destroy the entity, only forcing it back into its AI spirit form when it abandons the body.

[Hyper-Man]

That might work.

 

Another approach that would give more definite stats to the 'spirit' would be to build it with Alway On Desolidifcation like I did with Red Tornado.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/WriteUps.aspx
http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Wind%20Spirit.html
http://www.killershrike.com/MiscCharacters/Contributions/Hyper-Man/Supers/JLA/The%20Android%20Body.HTML

 

The physical body is literally built as vehicle but you could substite a normal creature as well and give the base 'spirit' the ability to summon a creature/vehicle to inhabit every so often.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You can absolutely build the spirit as an AI and anchor it to a building, a location or a person.

 

As far as it building bodies for itself are concerned, give it the power of duplication and the duplicate has a VPP which it uses to generate additional characteristics based on the materials present for it to build its body out of. a body of water would have lots of damage reduction (to simulate attacks passing through it) and the ability to do an engulf attack (nnd blast). a body of concrete would have high str, bod and lots of res defense. a body composed of active power lines would have stretching and a stun only blast attack. Let your imagination run wild.

[Lucius]

I've used unfocused AI for Gods and spirits and defined the avatar as Linked Telekinesis and Clairsentience with Physical Manifestation.

 

edit: if it's not anchored to SOMETHING, I have tended to add Transdimensional to the Powers, since an AI that can't be located at some point or associated with something materiel obviously transcends the default space time continuum.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary worships Janus, a God who will never turn His back on you

[dmjalund]

if you consider the AI living in the Cyberverse, you could buy all its abilities that can affect the real world as Extradimensional

[Christopher]

Personally I prefer going the Desolid approach for Swarms, Ghosts and the like. It seems fair, not least because it has to buy nearly all it's powers with "Affects Solid" and because you still have to give it one weakness (in addition to the Mental Powers; you can use stuff like a "Undead" Mind Class here). If it ends up being a 1000 points monster after fiting everything on it's sheet, then that propably was the powerlevel you are actually throwing around.

 

My rule of thumb there would be:

If you would not allow it for a player, you should not use it for a NPC.

For everything else there is "it's a plot device", wich never needs a writeup.

 

While you can go the way of making it an AI without any Focus or body, that is unessesarily complex. If you want to make it asbolutely invulnerable, you can just declare it to be invulnerable. There is no need to justify it's unaffectability with an cheesy AI that has no body build that you never would allow your players.

[Greywind]

As a GM, I often build things that I would never allow the players to use.

[Christopher]

As a GM, I often build things that I would never allow the players to use.

Then why build it at all?

You are using the Rules to make something that (by your own admission) is not allowed and balanced under the Rules as you use them. So why use the Rules at all, if you ignore them anyway?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Then why build it at all?

You are using the Rules to make something that (by your own admission) is not allowed and balanced under the Rules as you use them. So why use the Rules at all, if you ignore them anyway?

Because the rules create a dice structure by which physical reality can be abstracted. you use the rules to keep consistency in task resolution. however, that doesnt mean that everything in the game has to conform to those rules by 100% you adust to tailor things to the game you wish to portray as necessary to get the feel you want. proper simulation of the feel of the genre or effect you desire should (IMO) always trump adherence to the rules.

[Lucius]

Point the first: you'll note I said I would give an unfocused AI Powers that are "Transdimensional." I can point you to examples I've used that added up to two or three thousand points. I am in agreement with your sentiment

 

If it ends up being a 1000 points monster after fiting everything on it's sheet, then that propably was the powerlevel you are actually throwing around.

Powerful abilities should have high point costs. It's not about being cheap - which makes no sense anyway if you're the one running the game and have an unlimited point budget.

 

Then why build it at all?

You are using the Rules to make something that (by your own admission) is not allowed and balanced under the Rules as you use them. So why use the Rules at all, if you ignore them anyway?

Point the second: "Why use the Rules at all, if you ignore them anyway?" is a question I'd like to ask of you, given that you posted this:

 

Personally I prefer going the Desolid approach for Swarms, Ghosts and the like. It seems fair, not least because it has to buy nearly all it's powers with "Affects Solid" and because you still have to give it one weakness (in addition to the Mental Powers; you can use stuff like a "Undead" Mind Class here). If it ends up being a 1000 points monster after fiting everything on it's sheet, then that propably was the powerlevel you are actually throwing around.

 

My rule of thumb there would be:

If you would not allow it for a player, you should not use it for a NPC.

For everything else there is "it's a plot device", wich never needs a writeup.

 

While you can go the way of making it an AI without any Focus or body, that is unessesarily complex. If you want to make it asbolutely invulnerable, you can just declare it to be invulnerable. There is no need to justify it's unaffectability with an cheesy AI that has no body build that you never would allow your players.

Phrases like "'it's a plot device,' which never needs a writeup" and "just declare it to be invulnerable" sound to me like you're saying "just ignore the rules." As far as I can see, no one else had said anything remotely like "just ignore the rules" prior to this post (NuSoardGraphite did post something later that bears mentioning in this context) so I don't see why anyone else has to justify doing something they're not advocating.

 

Point the third: while Graywind has admitted using rules constructs they would not allow players, no one else has said as much. I haven't given a player 2,000 points for a character, but I have given one access to helpful unfocused AIs via a Summoning effect.

 

Point the fourth: As I see it, the reasons to write up a spirit as an AI are much the same as what I take your reasons to be for writing it up as Desolid:

Knowing a point cost gives you a rough idea of the powerlevel, so you know what you're putting your player characters up against.

As NuSoardGraphite put it, "Because the rules create a dice structure by which physical reality can be abstracted. you use the rules to keep consistency in task resolution." Although I'd add, not necessarily just physical reality. Having the write up tells you how it can be effected; if you know the Active Points that went into that Avatar, you know what a player character may have to roll to Dispel or Suppress it for example.

As for why use an AI over Desolid, it goes back to reasoning from effect; if the AI rules are a better simulation of how you see spirits, or of how you want them to work in your game, then the AI rules are the better choice.

 

And there is a long history of precedent. The Coates Shambler in Justice Inc (1984) pretty much WAS an AI; that's how you'd have to build it under the current edition anyway. So is The Dragon in, I think it was Arcane Enemies?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, if you build it, they will come

[Lord Liaden]

The old optional Spirit Rules from Fourth Edition posited building spirits as something very similar to un-Focussed AIs. I haven't looked at those rules in a long time, so I'd have to dig out my books to look up the particulars. But IIRC they also recommended defining a Characteristic -- EGO, I think -- which could be attacked by appropriate Powers, and if "destroyed" to negative numbers could kill the spirit, as with BODY damage for normal characters. Unless true immortality, a la the classical Greco-Roman gods, is a desired campaign parameter, I don't think anything should be unkillable by any means.

[Greywind]

Then why build it at all?

You are using the Rules to make something that (by your own admission) is not allowed and balanced under the Rules as you use them. So why use the Rules at all, if you ignore them anyway?

 

Because as the GM, it is my responsibility to challenge the players. I am not saying violate the rules. I am saying that if I have a group of 5 characters to deal with, then when they run into one character that is capable handing them their collective ass if they aren't careful, why would the group of characters need to be built that way?

 

If the builds can be done (legally, if questionably) why should the players be able to use it? There's the whole "build to concept" aspect where doing things in a violent, blood-thirsty manner isn't acceptable for the players from the GM's perspective, who tends to insist that the players play heroes.