Who do you think is right, Superman or Punisher?

[Balabanto]

NO that was just because they though ending the story by shunting all of the baddies to the Phantom Zone wasn't good enough. They wanted Superman to do something over the top and shocking.

 

I totally agree here. Bad writing is no excuse for not "Getting" Superman. As Jim Shooter said "He's Superman. He's GOOD. That's what it boils down to."

[Lord Liaden]

Lots of superhero characters who "don't kill" have been put in situations where they either have to kill, or someone innocent is going to die, as in Man of Steel. Clark pleaded with Zod not to do it, but Zod refused. The two of them were just as powerful, so Clark had to do something extreme to stop him. If he hadn't, I would have questioned whether this Superman has what it takes to truly be a hero, which sometimes involves great personal sacrifice. And he displayed how much pain killing Zod caused him immediately afterward, which I thought was well handled.

[kahuna's bro]

agreed killing someone even a crook should be the last resort NEVER the first

[Greywind]

Lots of superhero characters who "don't kill" have been put in situations where they either have to kill, or someone innocent is going to die, as in Man of Steel. Clark pleaded with Zod not to do it, but Zod refused. The two of them were just as powerful, so Clark had to do something extreme to stop him. If he hadn't, I would have questioned whether this Superman has what it takes to truly be a hero, which sometimes involves great personal sacrifice. And he displayed how much pain killing Zod caused him immediately afterward, which I thought was well handled.

 

If it had been built up to, and not done in his first outing, I'd agree. That was one major complaint with Green Lantern; take a rookie and throw him up against the biggest, baddest villain possible. The trials are supposed to get harder. Not easier.

[BlueCloud2k2]

I tend to look at this issue beyond just what the "right" or "wrong" thing to do is, which I agree can be debated depending on specific circumstances.

 

What the Punisher does is easy. Not physically easy -- clearly it requires great skill and is extremely dangerous -- but emotionally easy. For any of us, the easiest thing to do when faced with injustice, cruelty, greed, is to lash out in anger and hate, to make the perpetrators suffer. If the law impedes you from doing that, ignore the law. It's easy to rationalize as necessary and just, and very satisfying. The Punisher does rationalize his actions, and again, there's something to be said for his arguments. But it's clear from his stories that emotional pain is ultimately what drives him.

 

What Superman does is hard. Here's a man with the power to hurt or kill anyone who offends him, with practically no risk of consequences. In most cases it wouldn't even require much effort; a flick of his finger would kill a normal human. Superman chooses not to do so, to submit himself to the same laws as govern everyone else. In some cases this has come at great emotional cost to him. And his choice is based not on fear of punishment, but purely because he believes it's the right thing to do.

 

Whatever I might think of specific actions these men take, if there has to be someone in the world with the strength to move mountains, I'd rather it be someone with Superman's strength of character.

 

"We must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy." - Albus Dumbledore

[Lucius]

Both

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary explains: Superman has the right answer if you're Superman (not killing is always, or almost always, an option) and Punisher has the right answer for Punisher (sometimes killing is the only option that will let you live in peace with your own conscience.)

[Hermit]

One thing that annoys me about superheroes getting flack when they won't kill a repeat offender is it is so misplaced. I'd really like to see a superhero lay this one on the next time the joker or the like is being used and he gets flack for not just killing the psycho:

 

"Excuse me? Why didn't I 'finish him off'? How many times have I put him into the hands of the authorities? The very authorities YOU vote for, pay taxes for and support. You don't vote for me. I'm a free citizen with some gifts trying to help out best I can. I don't want praise for risking my life, but I  shouldn't be catching flack for refusing to abandon my conscience. Talk to your politicians, write in your newspapers, I don't know... show up for jury duty! But don't scream and point at me how I should get my hands dirty all while you keep your own mitts lily white and pretend somehow its now removed from you. If you want my protection, you've got it. You want me to be an executioner? Go to hell."

 

There are probably some rants in comics here already like that, but lord, I'm honestly surprised we don't see more.

[Cassandra]

One thing that annoys me about superheroes getting flack when they won't kill a repeat offender is it is so misplaced. I'd really like to see a superhero lay this one on the next time the joker or the like is being used and he gets flack for not just killing the psycho:

 

"Excuse me? Why didn't I 'finish him off'? How many times have I put him into the hands of the authorities? The very authorities YOU vote for, pay taxes for and support. You don't vote for me. I'm a free citizen with some gifts trying to help out best I can. I don't want praise for risking my life, but I  shouldn't be catching flack for refusing to abandon my conscience. Talk to your politicians, write in your newspapers, I don't know... show up for jury duty! But don't scream and point at me how I should get my hands dirty all while you keep your own mitts lily white and pretend somehow its now removed from you. If you want my protection, you've got it. You want me to be an executioner? Go to hell."

 

There are probably some rants in comics here already like that, but lord, I'm honestly surprised we don't see more.

 

I think you're right.  Superman is just to polite to say it.  The same people would be upset if he did kill off criminals, even killers, without "giving them due process."

[Doc Shadow]

The thing to remember is that Superman considers himself to be an unofficial Police Officer. He thinks and acts like a police officer. Police officers are not out there to kill the bad guys. Only to capture them, provide evidence of their guilt in a court of law, and then let the Officers of the Court and the Jury take it from there.

The Punisher, on the other hand, is a soldier. Soldiers are not out there to capture the enemy. A soldier's job is to kill the enemy. Usually, but not always, in open combat. If the enemy surrenders, then the soldier will capture him and he will be sent to a POW camp. If the enemy isn't surrendering the soldiers will do his level best to kill him. That's the soldier's job.

This is why it isn't a case of which is right and which is wrong. It's a case of which is the appropriate response for the individual situation. Depending on the circumstances, both can be right and both can be wrong.


And LL, what the Punisher does is far from easy. It is never easy to take a human life. Unless one is a sociopath, it will always cost you.

 

I'm most reminded of the line from Unforgiven when William Munny tells the Schofield Kid, "It's a helluva thing to kill a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

[Greywind]

I don't think Castle thinks in those terms. Any one he gets in his sights, he's pretty much already decided that they've given up their right to live.

[Cassandra]

I don't think Castle thinks in those terms. Any one he gets in his sights, he's pretty much already decided that they've given up their right to live.

 

Which makes you wonder why some more traditional outlook superheroes like Spider-Man put up with him.

[Cassandra]

Marvel seems to be Bronze Age, and DC Silver.

[Greywind]

Which makes you wonder why some more traditional outlook superheroes like Spider-Man put up wiht him.

 

Punisher didn't start out that way. He was more of a merc and Spidey was a bounty.

[Doc Shadow]

I don't think Castle thinks in those terms. Any one he gets in his sights, he's pretty much already decided that they've given up their right to live.

 

When he's poorly written, you're absolutely right. But then that can be true of any character. One More Day anyone? Civil War maybe? Anything involving Sniktbub? 

[Lord Liaden]

The thing to remember is that Superman considers himself to be an unofficial Police Officer. He thinks and acts like a police officer. Police officers are not out there to kill the bad guys. Only to capture them, provide evidence of their guilt in a court of law, and then let the Officers of the Court and the Jury take it from there.

 

The Punisher, on the other hand, is a soldier. Soldiers are not out there to capture the enemy. A soldier's job is to kill the enemy. Usually, but not always, in open combat. If the enemy surrenders, then the soldier will capture him and he will be sent to a POW camp. If the enemy isn't surrendering the soldiers will do his level best to kill him. That's the soldier's job.

 

This is why it isn't a case of which is right and which is wrong. It's a case of which is the appropriate response for the individual situation. Depending on the circumstances, both can be right and both can be wrong.

 

 

And LL, what the Punisher does is far from easy. It is never easy to take a human life. Unless one is a sociopath, it will always cost you.

 

I'm most reminded of the line from Unforgiven when William Munny tells the Schofield Kid, "It's a helluva thing to kill a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."

 

Generally speaking, I'm in full agreement with you. But IME the Punisher is most often written as if he was a sociopath, or a psychopath. I can't remember the last time I saw him display mercy to a target. His degree of ruthlessness is sometimes unsettling. He seems more like a revenge fantasy, catering to everyone who's ever wanted to strike back at someone; or to the action movie/ videogame generation, brought up to believe that blowing away "badguys" is "cool."

 

Looked at from a character perspective, I'd be tempted to say that all the carnage Frank Castle has caused since the loss of his family really has cost him. It's cost him part of his morality, and his human empathy.

 

BTW I'm familiar with the fictional novel protagonist who "inspired" (*cough*rippedoff*ahem*) the Punisher: Mac Bolan, aka "The Executioner." During most of his adventures written by his creator, Don Pendleton, Mac Bolan was very much a soldier, fighting on the home front what he felt was a far more insidious enemy than any foreign army. After his initial outrage at the Mafia's strike against his family, he was calmly rational about his one-man war, and very specific in his targets. He refused to place innocent lives in danger, or to defend himself against law-enforcement officers. He often rescued people in danger from the mob, at risk to his own life and objectives. On more than one occasion he let go a Mafioso whom he felt truly had a change of heart.

[Cassandra]

NO that was just because they though ending the story by shunting all of the baddies to the Phantom Zone wasn't good enough. They wanted Superman to do something over the top and shocking.

 

I think the change of costume was shocking enough, that and he was a zombie.  The actor was playing a zombie, wasn't he?

 

Or is he British?

[Nothere]

Of the two I'd have to lean towards Superman. Someone saying I have the ability to bring in people, and I'm going to bring them in alive so society can decide how it wants to deal with them is a lot more comforting than. I have a gun, I alone decides who lives and who dies. You don't like it too bad.

[Lord Mhoram]

I've always considered Superman, and to a lesser extent Captain America as the model of a heroic outlook, and always felt that Castle should be in jail or executed for Murder, my choice is clear.

 

 

In an action movie setting where he is the only one fighting the mafia, Castle makes sense. I enjoyed those.

 

But in a superhero world where there are characters and codes that make someone a superHERO (movitavtion and appraoch are as much above normal codes as the powers), someone who does kill, even if pointed in the correct direction, is a murderer.

[Enforcer84]

Punisher was created IIRC as a foil and became popular so they "fixed" him somewhat. 

 

That said it I'd much rather live in Superman's world. 

[assault]

Superman's world: Darkseid and Lex Luthor. No thanks.

[BlueCloud2k2]

The thing to remember about Frank Castle, IIRC, is that in the beginning he did only hit hardened criminals. As time went on, he became more of a Mercenary and Sociopath, gunning down even petty criminals and first time offenders.

 

Thing is, I think that in the beginning Frank WANTED to stop the killing, and had probably planned on stopping once his family was avenged.

 

It's been a while since I've read the earlier Punisher comics, and I could be wrong.

[Lord Liaden]

Superman's world: Darkseid and Lex Luthor. No thanks.

 

Punisher's world: Thanos and Galactus. Either one, I'd rather be defended by a Kryptonian than a guy with an assault rifle.

 

Although I'm not sure Luthor would survive a visit to Metropolis by the Punisher.

[Greywind]

Castle would need a reason to go after Luthor. I don't think being an ex-president would be reason enough.

[BlueCloud2k2]

IIRC, Luther was only implicated and never actually caught doing anything illegal... so while Castle might find reason to investigate Luther... he wouldn't just snipe him with a .50 from a distant rooftop.

 

Though I think Supes would make do his best to keep that from happening.

 

For some reason the issue of Punisher where Castle went after Osborn and had The Sentry hunting him comes to mind...

[Lord Liaden]

Castle would need a reason to go after Luthor. I don't think being an ex-president would be reason enough.

 

It's quite possible to find out what kind of man Lex Luthor really is, and what he's done. Proving it in court has always been the problem, but not for Frank Castle.