Equipment - Realistic or not?

[Beriadan]

So one of my players has this constant argument with me over the realism of weapons and armor in Fantasy Hero. He seems to forget the "fantasy" part.... Anyway, I was wondering what everyone else's take on the realism of the weapons: their strength requirement, their damage, their weight, etc. Opinions, want them I do.

[Christougher]

Not very realistic, and probably not aiming to be all that much.  They were intended to be balanced for game purposes for your heroic PCs.

 

Want better, find a 4E book, and compute STR Min as Active Points/3, and you get a lot closer to realistic.

 

Chris.

[Derek Hiemforth]

 

 

Want better, find a 4E book, and compute STR Min as Active Points/3, and you get a lot closer to realistic.

 

How exactly is basing STR Min on an Active Point formula more realistic than simply assigning a reasonable-seeming STR Min?

[bigbywolfe]

Not very realistic, and probably not aiming to be all that much. They were intended to be balanced for game purposes for your heroic PCs.

 

Want better, find a 4E book, and compute STR Min as Active Points/3, and you get a lot closer to realistic.

 

Chris.

The new ones aren't balanced, swords are pretty much always better than axes of the same damage. How is that balanced?

[Beriadan]

I had 4E Fantasy books way back when, on loan from my dad. Not sure where they are now, thought it doesn't seem all that unreasonable to say that I gave them back.

[Markdoc]

It may not be balanced, but it's probably realistic. Active points are an abstraction. A misericorde does not require more strength than a dagger just because it's armour-piercing.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christougher]

I said more realistic, not perfectly so.  And a far sight better than using a random number generator to assign them.

 

Chris.

[mhd]

I'm kinda-sorta ok with the weapons, but the PD-based weight of armor rubs me the wrong way.

And bows are too good, but that seems a generic Fantasy trope.

[bigbywolfe]

EDIT: Never mind...

[Tasha]

I said more realistic, not perfectly so.  And a far sight better than using a random number generator to assign them.

 

Chris.

I HIGHLY doubt that Steve used a Random Number Generator to assign the Str Mins. I would imagine that he used his judgement to assign what sounded like good Str Mins, based on the Max damage the weapon would do and if it would unbalance a game.

 

Armor Weights are the same way. They aren't really set up to be "realistic" only balanced so when you use Encumberance rules the Heavy Armor Folk take a decent enough hit to their DCV's to balance against the folk who wear light armor and have higher DCV's. It's the old trade off of more defense sacrifices DCV and vice versa. Works pretty well.

[Markdoc]

I said more realistic, not perfectly so.  And a far sight better than using a random number generator to assign them.

 

Chris.

 

Yeah, but the point is that using active points (or points at all) is never going to give you a "realistic" result. The two things are not connected. If you want realism, look to real life.

But for fantasy gaming, we probably don't want to much real life in the mix. So active points makes a simple compromise.

 

Now I agree that the current rules are kind of arbitrary: but this is Hero! You can easily roll your own. I have for my game, for years. Here's my quick and dirty conversion.

 

STR Min is calculated using Active Pts/2. OCV Mods, whether positive or negative, do NOT figure in. Stretching DOES figure in. Two-handed melee weapons get an automatic -5 STR Min; 1.5H weapons have two STR Mins listed (one for one-handed fighting, the other for two-handed). The STR Min for a normal weapon used two-handed is -3 STR Min. Weapons that are +1 Stun or increased KNB use their active points for calculating STR Min; ones that are -1 Stun have their STR Min calculated as if they were -1 DC from their listed damage. STR Min for Autofire throwing of weapons is based upon their active point cost, same as with +1 Stun weapons. However, these weapons have two STR Min listed: one for single shot, and one for autofire use. Other modifiers do not affect the calculation.

 

That gives lower strength min.s than the standard rules, but note that it has two consequences.

1. It means that ordinary people can wield almost all weapons without penalty. I see that as a feature, not a bug, but not everyone does.

2. The damage inflicted will increase, on average by 1-2 DC. This also is something I see as a feature, not a bug, but it does make combat a teeny bit more dangerous.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

The new ones aren't balanced, swords are pretty much always better than axes of the same damage. How is that balanced?

Because axes are top heavy, requiring a higher strength to wield with any kind of agility. To be fair, Axes start with a higher base damage than their sword equivalent, so it actually does balance out.

[bigbywolfe]

Because axes are top heavy, requiring a higher strength to wield with any kind of agility. To be fair, Axes start with a higher base damage than their sword equivalent, so it actually does balance out.

That's an argument for them being "realistic" not "balanced".

 

And I actually said that backwards.  Axes are generally better than swords.  There is a 1 1/2d6K axe with a STR Min of 12 that can be thrown.  The equivalent damage sword is STR Min 13 and requires 1 1/2 hands.  The 1d6K axe is Short Length, but it can be thrown and has a STR Min of only 6 versus the 1d6K Sword with a STR Min of 10.  The 1d6+1K axe is also better than the 1d6+1K sword.  

 

If anything weapons were not changed to be more balanced, they were changed to be more realistic (for a given value of "realistic"), hence why axes are generally easier to use.  

[Chris Goodwin]

Ask him if he's ever actually held a real sword.  Then point him to this article. Finally, pull GM rank on him if you have to.  

 

The weapon stats were chosen arbitrarily with more reference to game mechanics than to real performance.  Never having worn real armor or fought with a real sword, I couldn't say how "realistic" they are, and in all likelihood neither can your player.  

[Tasha]

Ask him if he's ever actually held a real sword.  Then point him to this article. Finally, pull GM rank on him if you have to.  

 

The weapon stats were chosen arbitrarily with more reference to game mechanics than to real performance.  Never having worn real armor or fought with a real sword, I couldn't say how "realistic" they are, and in all likelihood neither can your player.  

 

Heck there's no one who really KNOWS what it's like to REALLY fight in Old Style armors using swords etc. There are people who have gotten close, but since we don't go out to kill one another using those weapons and armors. No one in the modern era can really know what it's like. SCA folk know what it's like to have someone beat on your armor with a heavy stick, but not with a real weapon (Sword, Axe, mace, Pick etc)

[mhd]

Well, you can do some experimental archeology, especiall if it's just about damage and not usage. But in a game where you don't separate between thrusts and cuts, that's probably all within the margin of error, never mind the variety of weapons that would fall under each single item in the tables. (What's a "short sword" anyway?)

[Christougher]

Heck there's no one who really KNOWS what it's like to REALLY fight in Old Style armors using swords etc. There are people who have gotten close, but since we don't go out to kill one another using those weapons and armors. No one in the modern era can really know what it's like. SCA folk know what it's like to have someone beat on your armor with a heavy stick, but not with a real weapon (Sword, Axe, mace, Pick etc)

 

Battle of Nations.  Despite weapons being blunted, severed fingers are an injury they are prepared to treat on-site.

 

Chris.

[Tasha]

Battle of Nations.  Despite weapons being blunted, severed fingers are an injury they are prepared to treat on-site.

 

Chris.

Because it's not a "Kill the other guy" my comment still stands. How you fight when your life is really on the line is different from an event that has rules, esp ones that prevent people from killing one another. I am not advocating that the SCA or any group start real to the death combat, but that unless such fighting is common all we can see are simulations that will cause the particpants to min max their skills and tactics for that set of rules. Sort of like how d20 rules change the tactics of people playing that game.

[Christougher]

Very much agreed.  There's a saying about how to determine which group a LARP/SCA fighter is with.  One leads with their head (which is not a legal shot), the other leads with the feet (again, not a legal shot while the head is).

 

Chris.

[L. Marcus]

I do know that Kendo has a whole range of moves that would get the operator killed in a naked-blade fight. Granted, the opponent would probably also die ...

[Markdoc]

I am not advocating that the SCA or any group start real to the death combat ...

 I dunno. I'd pay to see that

 

cheers, Mark