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Telekinesis and Area of Effect


paul_runstedler

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Howdy...its been a while! Just getting back into the game again after a few years hiatus...

I'm creating a character who can manipulate gravity, and want to purchase a telekinetic power over an area...Basically want to be able to life a few people off the ground etc. Thought about posting this in the rules forum, but I suspect the answers are pretty easy for those of you who've been playing for a while...

 

Question 1. If I buy area of effect on telekinesis, when I attempt to use it to say...grab 3 people, do I roll against the hex DCV and/or each character's DCV in the hex?

Question 2. Purchasing the power with "affects whole object" so...can't punch or squeeze...which is cool. With this power limitation, does it mean that two of the characters limbs are not pinned?

 

Thanks all!

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Question 1: I think you roll once against DCV 3.

 

Question 2: When you talk about "Gravity TK" I usually think about pinning the whole body (especially the torso) to the ground. Or lifting them off the ground. While the character retains control of his limbs, the pose itself makes it hard to aim them anywhere usefull.

The special effect alone cannot limit the Telekinesis Power in this way, so it would be worth a limtiation.

 

Champions 6E has several Superbases, wich among others have these powers:

Cell Block Artificial Gravity Pinner: Telekinesis (40 STR), Area Of Effect (Any 8 2m Areas; +¾), Affects Desolidified (+½); IIF Immobile (-1¼), Only To Pull Objects Straight Down To The Floor (-1), Only Within Defined Area (30m x 30m area; -2)

 

Artificial Gravity Generator: Telekinesis (10 STR). IIF Immobile (-1¼), Only To Pull Objects Straight Down To The Floor (-1)

(For the space base - note that this one has no AoE and indeed the backup generator get's a "limited Coverage" Limtaition on top of what is listed here)

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An approach I prefer for 'Gravity' is to use Flight with Usable as Attack. One reason is that it is illegal to apply any type of No Normal Defense Advantage to TK which means that a super-strong character who doesn't necessarily have flight (think Hulk) can use his STR to break out of a gravity based TK grab which makes no sense*. Reason two, Usable as Attack when applied to a movement ability like Flight must have a defense condition defined (just like NND!).

 

*Nothing in the published TK based 'gravity power' builds ever explain why a 40 STR TK effect can't be broken by a strong character who lacks 'leverage' (no flight and not on the ground).

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Hmmm...Christopher, thanks for the info. Hyper-Man, great suggestion. I also wondered how someone who is strong could possibly break out of a reversal of gravity. I will have to propose the power to my GM and see what happens.

 

I'm thinking of some flight, a gravity based entangle, and density increase as possible powers for this character...anyone else have any suggestions for cool gravity controlling types?

 

Thanks!

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Question 1: Depends on how you build it. If its just AOE TK then you will affect everyone in the AOE and you roll against the DCV 3 target hex to center the AOE effect. If you add Selective/Non-Selective that changes things.

 

Question 2: According to the book the "Affects whole Object" allows you to grab, so you still follow all the rules of grab and two limbs CAN be restrained, even with that limitation (you can change the limitation if you want to prevent that from occurring, but I wouldn't say its worth more of a limitation than the base limitation.)

 

Flight UAA is a popular way to simulate "gravity control" type powers but be careful as they can easily be overpowered. While there is a definite "rationale" for the power that says strength shouldn't be allowed to break it using UAA can easily mean there is little to no defense against it for many characters (I have frequently seen the defense defined as having Flight powers of your own) meaning it can be incredibly powerful and nearly impossible to overcome. 2m of flight, UAA is enough to make you immune to melee attacks (they can't get into melee range). It will also effectively nullify Running, Leaping, and Tunneling movement so that anyone without flight/swinging/teleportation is effectively immobilized, all for less than 10 CP worth of power.

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Oh, as far as other "gravity" abilities:

 

Heavy Gravity:

Suppress Strength, AOE

Suppress Movement (Generally Running, Flight, Leaping) (Can also use CE)

Entangle, takes no Damage

Blast/RKA, Indirect, NND

CE: -STR Rolls

CE: TK (another way to simulate high gravity)

+ KB Resist, UBN

 

Low Gravity:

Suppress Movement (Running) (can also use CE)

Naked Advantage, Double Knockback, UBN

+STR (Only for lifting, Throwing), UBN

+ Leaping

CE: - Dex/Skill Rolls (Countered by Environmental Movement: Zero Grav)

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psyber624 - Awesome list...me likey! I built up the flight UAA last night...gotta say I agree - pretty powerful! So on the fence about it...On one hand I'd like to buy it as telekinetic, but there's that weird issue about being able to break out via strength...

 

Built up an entangle as well, and ran into an issue last night. Bought it with "takes no damage" limitation (as you mention above), but still a little bit weird as a character can direct attacks directly at the entangle...Imagine if you will my new character pulling my enemy "Firestorm" to the ground by increasing their mass (or increasing the force of gravity on them). Firestorm languishes against the ground teeth gritted, unable to move....Suddenly, in the next phase Firestorm uses his 12d6 EB (flameshoot), destroys the entangle, and jumps to his feet....Something just doesn't make sense :(

 

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Great example of gravity powers in action.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoT78tW9qX8

I have mixed feeling about that episode. Turning gravity off on Iron Man send him flying into space, but it should not be particularly hard for him to fly back, unless he did not turn it off, but reversed it making him "fall up" (and at a higher G than normal). And if he can do that then he could have won the battle by simply doing it to the Hulk. I know it can be chalked up to him being an overconfident megalomaniac with poor strategic ability, but it still bugs me.
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Paul that is one of the issues with power sources like gravity control. In order to maintain game balance you need SOME way for the majority of players to be able to counter it, or the cost of the power needs to reflect the power of the ability. Gravity control as an SFX argues that there really isn't a way for the majority of characters to cancel it (especially melee types). That means that if you want to simulate it you need to make sure it is priced appropriately.

 

One way to do that is to abstract the concept of gravity control and ask yourself, what exactly are the GAME EFFECTS you are trying to simulate.

 

Being able to lift someone off the ground and giving them nothing to push against effectively renders unpowered movement null and void. That's basically what you are doing to them. They can't run, can't leap, can't tunnel, etc. Without gravity to hold them down they would be MUCH easier to push around. So lets look at how we can get those effects in a balanced fashion.

 

The problem with entangle and TK Grabs is that they allow "Strength" to counter antigrav, which seems weird. So what about a CE: -Running/Leaping/Tunneling or a Suppress of the same. That has the same "In game" effect (they cant move) so achieves our objective. Suppress is odd because it would allow PwD to counter our anti-grav power, which again seems weird. So I would go with Change Environment with the - movement option. That costs 1 CP per 1m of movement it removes. Anyone with movement higher than what we buy the CE to effect we can reason it out as "Generating velocity by running in air" or "Kicking off so hard that they move even tho they have nothing to push against (kicking off of the air so to speak)" Granted neither of these are COMPLETELY plausible in real world physics but both explanations seem to sync with the tricks other characters have used in "cartoon physics" to escape such abilities. Since we would define this as Zero Gravity then Environmental Movement:Zero Grav might be a reasonable counter to it, or DI/Growth (they are heavier than normal so the power has less effect on them). (Note that while CE technically doesn't HAVE to have a counter it is stated that some GM's may wish to add one in so those are just a couple of suggestions if your GM wants them.)

 

So now we have a power that does what we want the Zero Grav to do, is priced appropriately for its power, and the game effect interactions are at least a decent match for how the special effect ought to function in the game world. Sprinkle in other abilites as appropriate (The NA: Double Knockback, UBN seems highly appropriate) and there you have it.

 

If you like it give it a Spin and tell me what you think!

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I've been pondering using an AoE TK for a power myself. In my own case, the idea is a field in which a character can simply hold items (not people) in place, either in terms of absolute position or position relative to an object a character is physically manipulating. Thus, if the character slid a shelf out of place with his ordinary STR, s/he could either have the items on the shelf hang where they were or follow the shelf as though "stuck" to it thanks to this field, yet couldn't just will the items to fly around. -- Pteryx

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Er, hi, everybody. Did anyone see those lights? What year is this?

 

Couple of things about gravity powers:

  1. You are never going to get them to work right, so accept that and move on. The Avengers clip is a good example: the powers demonstrated don'™t seem to reverse/control gravity so much as use it as an advanced form of TK. For example, build Gravity Reversal as AOE Flight UAA (area of effect Flight, useable as attack) and you turn it on a building, well, nothing happens. Flight does not apply force as such (unless you want to use the "boosting STR with movement powers"™ rules), so an object fixed in the ground is going to ignore the flight power. In "˜reality"most buildings would pull themselves apart if you reversed gravity or significantly changed the angle of it (changing gravity by 90 degrees would be like building a house on the side of a sheer cliff).
  2. TK, as has been pointed out, gives funny results against strong opponents and note that, even with AOE, the total you can lift is still limited by the STR of the TK; it is not that much TK per object, but all objects.
  3. Can I suggest change environment? Psyber624 mentioned it already, but let us take another look.
  4. You will actually need a suite of related powers if you are going to do it right, but CE is a good place to start, subject to GM approval. A lot of the stuff reverse gravity should be able to do is window dressing anyway, like having loads of stuff fly about the place and such. For specific tasks, build specific powers.

The real trouble with something like gravity manipulation is that it has so many different effects. At the risk of being accused of making it up as I go along, it seems to me that the way that Hero generally copes with complicated stuff is to use Change Environment: witness wind speed, temperature and such. Running with that line of argument, gravity is just a bit of complicated machinery that is stuck somewhere under the surface of the game works; part, if you will, of the environment.

 

Increasing or decreasing gravity can be enormously powerful, but then so can suffocating someone or stunning them. Working from that base, how about we decide that nullifying gravity (really inconvenient but of relatively limited combat impact, a bit like suffocating), costs 20 points and reversing gravity is a bit more nasty, so it worth 30 (like stunning someone).

 

So:

 

Nullify Gravity: Change Environment (20 point Custom Adder, Long-Lasting 5 Minutes), Area Of Effect (128m Radius; +1 1/2) (90 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2) 65 active/43 real/6 END

 

Reverse Gravity: Change Environment (30 point Custom Adder, Long-Lasting 5 Minutes), Area Of Effect (128m Radius; +1 1/2) (65 Active Points); Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2) 90 active/60 real/ 9 END

 

That is your starting point: pretty big powers already, but that at least means that it is easy to link things to them or use some sort of framework.

 

I would probably then just tag on a straightforward 40 STR TK and call it golden. The CE power affects gravity over a wide area, the TK manipulates gravity in very limited areas to move things around, crush them and the like.

 

Gravity Manipulation: Telekinesis (40 STR), Alterable Origin Point (65 Active Points); Linked (Nullify Gravity; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; -1/2) 65 active/43 real 6 END

 

Now if I were the GM I would want some agreed effects for the Reverse/Nullify gravity. For example, with Nullify Gravity, you leap and you keep going in a straight line, ditto KB. There might be some penalty for combat if you do not have Zero G environmental adaption.

 

Reverse gravity is the same thing but you fall upward if you do not hang on (note I have built it with extra phase only to activate so that people do get a chance to grab something)“ the field changes over several seconds, not instantly.

 

Anyone not hanging on falls upward until they hit something solid, or they hit the edge of the CE, at which point they stick to the gravity sphere then slowly slide down to ground level at the edge of it.

 

Sounds fair and playable to me, but I have not tried it in practice.

 

As a GM I would also allow cool stuff. Loads of bits of debris will float in the air (set dressing, mainly, but a clever player might find a use for it), liquids and fire act oddly.

 

 

Also, cats:

 

 

Hmm.

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"I have mixed feeling about that episode. Turning gravity off on Iron Man send him flying into space, but it should not be particularly hard for him to fly back, unless he did not turn it off, but reversed it making him "fall up" (and at a higher G than normal). And if he can do that then he could have won the battle by simply doing it to the Hulk. I know it can be chalked up to him being an overconfident megalomaniac with poor strategic ability, but it still bugs me."

Indeeed that is the biggest issue. He only does this trick to the one character (of the entire group) that

a) can survive in Space

B) can return from Space

c) can fight back

 

But then again, he only did that trick once. When was practically figthing Iron Man alone. Wich implies it is unsuiteable to "cast" while being in a groupfight. Sustaining it was not an issue until he was stunned later by Thor.

 

Also an interstign question: Have we ever saw ironman lift Hulk using his flight?

I mean we know it is strong enough to move him. Even quite fast. But could he lift the Hulk using it?

If not it stands to reason that Gravitons Flight UAA had a severe weight limit. So all he could use was his TK.

 

Paul that is one of the issues with power sources like gravity control. In order to maintain game balance you need SOME way for the majority of players to be able to counter it' date=' or the cost of the power needs to reflect the power of the ability. Gravity control as an SFX argues that there really isn't a way for the majority of characters to cancel it (especially melee types). That means that if you want to simulate it you need to make sure it is priced appropriately.[/quote']

Indeed game balance is the main issue here. And quite a common one when writing up powers in HERO (or realy any RPG).

This is simply the problem that "What works in Fiction does not nessesarily works in a RPG".

 

Suppress is odd because it would allow PwD to counter our anti-grav power' date=' which again seems weird.[/quote']

How about "NND: Any Flight or Gravity based powers"?

 

Or just ignore it. Power Defense is inherently lacking a sense making special effect. Because it works against too many odd powers. And I have not really seen a Character who fields it in any case.

If it is not a problem, there is no point wondering about it.

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"I have mixed feeling about that episode. Turning gravity off on Iron Man send him flying into space, but it should not be particularly hard for him to fly back, unless he did not turn it off, but reversed it making him "fall up" (and at a higher G than normal). And if he can do that then he could have won the battle by simply doing it to the Hulk. I know it can be chalked up to him being an overconfident megalomaniac with poor strategic ability, but it still bugs me."

Indeeed that is the biggest issue. He only does this trick to the one character (of the entire group) that

a) can survive in Space

B) can return from Space

c) can fight back

 

But then again, he only did that trick once. When was practically figthing Iron Man alone. Wich implies it is unsuiteable to "cast" while being in a groupfight. Sustaining it was not an issue until he was stunned later by Thor.

 

Also an interstign question: Have we ever saw ironman lift Hulk using his flight?

I mean we know it is strong enough to move him. Even quite fast. But could he lift the Hulk using it?

If not it stands to reason that Gravitons Flight UAA had a severe weight limit. So all he could use was his TK.

 

Paul that is one of the issues with power sources like gravity control. In order to maintain game balance you need SOME way for the majority of players to be able to counter it' date=' or the cost of the power needs to reflect the power of the ability. Gravity control as an SFX argues that there really isn't a way for the majority of characters to cancel it (especially melee types). That means that if you want to simulate it you need to make sure it is priced appropriately.[/quote']

Indeed game balance is the main issue here. And quite a common one when writing up powers in HERO (or realy any RPG).

This is simply the problem that "What works in Fiction does not nessesarily works in a RPG".

 

Suppress is odd because it would allow PwD to counter our anti-grav power' date=' which again seems weird.[/quote']

How about "NND: Any Flight or Gravity based powers"?

 

Or just ignore it. Power Defense is inherently lacking a sense making special effect. Because it works against too many odd powers. And I have not really seen a Character who fields it in any case.

If it is not a problem, there is no point wondering about it.

Thor can do all three things you list.

Hulk is not infinitely dense/heavy. If he can sink Hulk waist deep in a crater the size of a city block than he can pick Hulk up. It is easier to pick Hulk up than it is to hold him in place when he has leverage.

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Sean Waters...wow! Very cool indeed. That has given me some things to think about. The last time I played Change Environment didn't have combat modifiers...Think it was just 5thE.

 

I like a little bit of what Pteryx was saying...hold something in place in some way...then I got thinking about moving away from gravity manipulation altogether as (Sean and many of you have indicated) it is pretty complicated and fraught with a lot of issues.

 

So, I'm starting to refine my concept a bit...Thinking maybe gravity is just too hard to deal with. Slight adjustment to increasing/decreasing the mass of objects. I envision a small area that he can effect where he increases the mass by say...32x (so 100 kg person suddenly weighs 3,200 kg.

Does this make sense for the power?

 

Increase mass by 32x (100 kg -> 3200kg)

Telekinesis - 35 strength

Affects whole object (-1/4) (cannot punch or squeeze)

Must immediately move target down at max distance (20") (hits ground does 35 str damage) (-1/2)

 

 

Active cost: 53. Final cost 30

 

That is the power if I had it so it only affected on person. If I wanted an area of effect...well that would be more.

 

 

I'm using telekinesis (though it is *similar* to entangle) to get around the ability for someone to try to break through it with some type of energy blast etc, cause that doesn't make sense. What do you think of this? Does it seemed priced correctly?

 

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.....

So, I'm starting to refine my concept a bit...Thinking maybe gravity is just too hard to deal with. Slight adjustment to increasing/decreasing the mass of objects. I envision a small area that he can effect where he increases the mass by say...32x (so 100 kg person suddenly weighs 3,200 kg.

Does this make sense for the power?

 

Increase mass by 32x (100 kg -> 3200kg)

Telekinesis - 35 strength

Affects whole object (-1/4) (cannot punch or squeeze)

Must immediately move target down at max distance (20") (hits ground does 35 str damage) (-1/2)

 

 

Active cost: 53. Final cost 30

 

That is the power if I had it so it only affected on person. If I wanted an area of effect...well that would be more.

 

 

I'm using telekinesis (though it is *similar* to entangle) to get around the ability for someone to try to break through it with some type of energy blast etc, cause that doesn't make sense. What do you think of this? Does it seemed priced correctly?

 

One potential problem with TK used in this way is that strength is still not the only way you can get out of it: you can escape grabs, which means that someone who is sufficiently bendy (contortionist skill and such) can escape a grab, whether it be from 'normal strength' or TK strength' - as psyber 624 pointed out.

 

That does not make sense for someone who is suddenly too heavy to stand up.  It is a puzzler, because you are running 'real world effects' up against game mechanics that are not specifically designed to work that way.

 

One way to think of this is to consider the 'balance of play'.  I'm not a big fan of balance of play - I don't really care much if a power is potentially all powerful - I tend to just make sure that it is built in a way that makes it playable.  Nonetheless, I can understand why the game designers might not trust people not to simply go for the instant win; you get all sorts in here :)

 

I am hesitant to suggest this after such a long hiatus - because using the OmniPower always makes one feel slightly soiled - but how about transform?  I mean, you are trying to change a target into a heavier thing, you are changing a physical property of the target - why not do that directly?

 

Gravity Concentrator:  Major Transform (increased mass x 16) 3d6, Partial Transform (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Power Defence to Gravity or Mass Powers (Uncommon to Rare); +1/2) (60 Active Points); Rapid Dissipation (The transform 'damage' will fade at 5 points per turn; -1/4) 60 active/48 real 6 END

 

Now That seems to be about right.  The amount of mass increase is arbitrary, but I chose x16 because I am a GM mainly.  The TK build presented effectively increases the mass by x32 for 53 active points and has concept limitations (like Mr Bendy being able to 'escape' being much heavier).  This is 60 active points and avoids the limitations - although a balancing factor is that almost certainly it will require several hits to actually increase the mass that much, so there is an argument that x32 is more appropriate - one to thrash out with your GM.

 

The build has 'partial transform' so you get a bit heavier with each hit (I'd probably eyeball it at 2x mass per hit until the limit is achieved then full effect.

 

The 'rapid dissipation' is there because I figure that the gravitons you saturate the target with have a short half life and the AVAD means that generic power defence will not be useful, but anyone capable of manipulating gravity or mass can 'flush' the gravitons away almost instantly.

 

I would also (despite being a GM) allow the power to be used on an already transformed target i.e. If you have already increased mass, you can keep doing it until the target is utterly crushed/forms a black hole.  That may sound a bit extreme, but it is not, really - that is going to take ages and so is only going to be useful outside combat and is quite cool, so it clearly should be allowed in.

 

Now I know that people will be upset about using transform, but the trouble is it actually does what you want - which makes it an appropriate build.

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Also worth noting that TK will stop once you lose line of sight to the target (if they fall through the floor, for example), whereas the transform only goes away when the effect dissipates - another advantage of this build, and one that I think argues more toward x16 for full effect rather than x32.  Of course you might WANT it to stop when you lose LOS, if the concept is for an 'active' gravity concentration.  The important thing is to have a really clear idea of what you want and how you want it to work.

 

Whenever we have this sort of power in a game I will always make it clear to players that there is a GM fiat parked outside and that the power may be driven back to the manufacturer if it proves unbalancing.

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I have mixed experiencing about that event. Transforming gravitational pressure off of about Batman send your ex hurtling straight into area, but it shouldn't be specifically hard for your pet for you to take flight rear, until this individual failed to turn it off, nevertheless solved that producing "fall up" (at a higher Gary than usual). If he is able to make it happen he then would have gained your struggle by just carrying it out towards the Hulk. It can be chalked up to him or her becoming an overconfident megalomaniac using bad tactical capability, however it still insects me personally.

I understood the first and the last sentence. The rest seems to make no sense for me.

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I understood the first and the last sentence. The rest seems to make no sense for me.

Where did tou even get that? It is a misquote of what I said.

"I have mixed feeling about that episode. Turning gravity off on Iron Man send him flying into space, but it should not be particularly hard for him to fly back, unless he did not turn it off, but reversed it making him "fall up" (and at a higher G than normal). And if he can do that then he could have won the battle by simply doing it to the Hulk. I know it can be chalked up to him being an overconfident megalomaniac with poor strategic ability, but it still bugs me."

 

The person you "quote" doesn't seem to have ecen participated in this thread...

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Personally I've always thought that Gravity Manipulation needs like 3-4 powers to get it to work correctly.  I recently put together a high-powered super-villain similar to Graviton from the Avengers episode mentioned earlier.  I looked at a ton of different ideas and how things happen in that fight and pretty much came up with the following powers as needed to fit what I was looking for.

 

1) Change Environment for Negative movement - This is the only real way to simulate being pinned to the ground (or lifted up) since AoE Telekinesis you can break out of and be able to move normally.  That being said, I think it's wholly believable for someone to "Push" themselves enough to get to their feet and walk a few inches.  You see it all the time in comics and such so I think having the CE be LESS than most people's total movement is proper.

 

2) Telekinesis AoE - This is the second half of the "Pin people to the ground" (ie the part where people can get crushed by having the extra weight push them down).  I think this is necessary because having enough force to keep you pinned to the floor would do more than just keep you rooted.  It'll potentially break bones and cause enough pressure to black someone out.  Having it linked to the Change Environment gives you the effect of being pinned and taking damage from the TK grab, which forces you to "push" yourself to get to your feet (ie break the grab) and then fight the gravity (still being affected by the negative movement change environment).  Plus this will also be useful for when your character wants to lift and toss a group of people away.

 

3) Missile Deflection - This is more of a flavor thing, but being able to redirect the center of gravity of objects seems appropriate.  You see these kind of people tossing boulders and other objects aside and this is the easiest way to make that happen.

 

4) Flight - These guys are always flying so they need to have something for that.  I don't like to mess with the UAA Flight so this is strictly for the guy's personal use.

 

Now, as I said, this was for a high-powered super villain.  He cost around 600 points in powers alone so this is not feasable as a hero (nor would I allow it because this would be pretty damn powerful and make it a bitch to try and GM against).  I do have a hero who has a VERY limited form of gravity manipulation that really only affects a single target.  We did that one as TK since it's not an area and, again, I think the ability to use strength to "push" out of it and resist the force of gravity is perfectly reasonable.  Like with everything in this game, there's a dozen ways to do any power idea.  Picking the right one is up to you and how you want to flavor it and how 'realistic' you want it to be.  Also, I'm not above handwaving a few of the minor rules snags to make things easier to work around.

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