Power Levels For Iconic Characters

[Greywind]

Eh. They're all "elseworlds" now.

[Tasha]

IMHO there's a fundamental difference between the way that DC approaches Their characters and Marvel does theirs. DC's heroes and Heroines are for the most part way larger than life. They do things that most Marvel Characters couldn't even conceive of. To my mind that suggests that a DC hero esp one of their Iconics are built on way more points than a run of the mill Champions character.

 

When it comes to character building in general I really agree with Trebuchet. I have been playing the game since nearly the beginning. When 3rd edition came out and included all of the cool skills that my Fantasy Hero, Danger International and Justice Inc. characters had. I was very happy. I could build someone that was more than a big pile of powers. Unfortunately 250pts was the powerlevel for that edition and it was hard to do both and have a character that either wasn't so munchkined out with limitations or incredibly gimped in powers. ie hard to create a character that could work at the powerlevel of the campaign. Powerlevel meaning Average Damage Class, Dex, Spd, Def etc. After around 6 months of playing 4th edition I talked all of the GM's into allowing characters to be purchased with an extra 50pts that would be used for skills (not Cbt skill levels). Making Characters 300pts (150+150 iirc). I was very happy when 5e came out and the official point level increased to 350 which allowed for more flexibility in character gen.

 

Cass, you do really amazing things with 250pts. Sometimes the Power Constructs are a bit odd to fit the concept in to few points. Also characters tend to be a bit skill lite IMHO. I think your DC conversions were kind of stretching things a bit. I guess I really appreciate straight forward power constructs. Ones where I can look at them and tell at a glance how the character works.

 

Heck, if I were to run Champions now. I would forget the point limits all together and create the characters to fit the concept. Making sure that the real powerlevels (DC, dex etc) are balanced.

 

It's really easy in this system to get caught up in point totals. I don't worry about it as much anymore.

[Cassandra]

Thanks for you kind words, Tasha, and I do agree that my Superhero characters are geared more for powers then skills, but that is my take on the genre. I build them on 250 Points because I think that as they gain experience they would gain skills, not just more powers. After all, 75 years ago Superman couldn't even fly. You could consider my creations "Year One" versions of the characters, and add any points you like. I use Characteristic Templates and build on 250 Points for play balance. I'm not interested in building a super powerful hero who turns out to be useless because someone has some kryptonite, or because he knows his future and he knows he's not going to do anything (take that, Dr. Manhattan!).

[Cassandra]

I do think that Hero Level Characters (150 Points) need more skills such as WF: Small Arms and Combat Driving because they use equipment assigned to them/then steal to carry out their missions.

[Cassandra]

Riddle me this, how do you build the Bat Signal?

[Cassandra]

Lois and the Daily Planet being killed are from Mark Waid's Kingdom Come. Good art, but I didn't buy the premise.

 

The same way I didn't buy The Dark Knight Rises characterization of Bruce Wayne after the events of The Dark Knight. Or the government's response to Bane's threat, I mean they had five months.

 

Anne Hathaway was great as Catwoman though.

[Cassandra]

To Tre's point about the Joker being less an effective fighter then Batman that would also be true is both were built on 250 points, because Joker has to buy Followers (Harley Quinn and a few henchmen).

[Tasha]

To Tre's point about the Joker being less an effective fighter then Batman that would also be true is both were built on 250 points, because Joker has to buy Followers (Harley Quinn and a few henchmen).

But Batman has Vehicles, a base and a Follower (Alfred Pennyworth). So he has probably spent as much or more on stuff than The Joker. Also Joker didn't gain Harley until fairly recently. Golden age and Silver Age Joker was more or less Solo.

[Tasha]

Riddle me this, how do you build the Bat Signal?

Why do you have to? It's the GM's way of summoning Batman to talk to the Police. This is what I am talking about. Somethings really don't need to have points added. You could even argue that it's part of Perk: Contact "Chief of Police" for Bats, and Perk: Contact "Batman" for the Chief.

[assault]

Here is a template I would use for creating "near enough" versions of most of the early Justice League. I explicitly exclude Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman from that.

 

It should cover Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern and the Martian Manhunter.

 

Green Arrow, the Atom and Hawkman joined later (a fair bit later in Hawkman's case), and could be given a bit of extra experience to allow them to keep up with the founders.

 

Again: this does NOT cover Batman, Superman or Wonder Woman.

---

 

Generic Silver Age Hero

Real Name

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

20 DEX 30

20 CON 20

10 BODY 0

13 INT 3

10 EGO 0

20 PRE 10

10 COM 0

8 PD 4 Total: 11 PD (3 rPD)

8 ED 4 Total: 11 ED (3 rED)

5 SPD 20

8 REC 0

40 END 0

30 STUN 0 Total Characteristic Cost: 101

Movement: Running: 6"Â/12"

Swimming: 2"/4€"

 

Abilities

 

Cost Powers

100 Points of powers

Total Powers Cost: 100

 

Cost Skills

Martial Arts: Red Blooded Fisticuffs

4 Martial Block

4 Martial Strike

5 Offensive Strike

 

30 points of skills and perks

Total Skills Cost: 43

 

Cost Talents

6 Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

Total Talents Cost: 6

 

Total Abilities Cost: 149

Total Cost: 250

 

150+ Disadvantages

10 Hunted: Archnemesis (Occasionally, As Pow, Capture/Kill)

15 Hunted: Category of regular opponents (Frequently, As Pow, Capture/Kill)

20 DNPC: Romantic Interest (Occasionally, Normal, Unaware of Identity)

20 Psychological Limitation: Code Of The Hero (Common, Total)

15 Social Limitation: Secret ID (Whoever, Profession) (Frequently, Major)

20 Vulnerable to Surprise Attacks (Common,Target 2x STUN)

Total Disadvantage Points: 250

[Cassandra]

Regarding the Bat Signal, you need to have a write up for it because Jim Gordon in a DNPC.

 

Contact: Batman 11-

 

10 Points (Let's face it, he's really useful to Gordon).

[Cassandra]

Nice write up, Assault.

[Cassandra]

Characteristics Templates

 

Brick

 

Male Char Female

50 STR 50

15 DEX 18

25 CON 25

14 BODY 10

13 INT 13

10 EGO 11

20 PRE 20

18 COM 18

25 PD 20

15 ED 20

4 SPD 4

15 REC 15

50 END 50

52 STUN 48

Total Characteristics Cost: 150 Points

 

Examples: Superman, Supergirl, Power Girl, Hulk, She Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Rogue, Wonder Woman, Valkyrie

 

 

Energy Projector

Metamorph

Powered Armor

 

Male Char Female

20 STR 15

18 DEX 20

20 CON 18

12 BODY 11

18 INT 18

11 EGO 14

15 PRE 15

18 COM 18

6 PD 5

4 ED 5

4 SPD 4

10 REC 9

50 END 46

32 STUN 28

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Examples: Iron Man, Mister Fantastic, Plastic Man, Human Torch, Invisible Girl, Bruce Banner, Iceman, Colussus

 

 

Martial Artist

Patriot

Weapons Master

 

Male Char Female

20 STR 15

18 DEX 20

20 CON 18

12 BODY 11

18 INT 18

11 EGO 14

20 PRE 20

18 COM 18

8 PD 7

6 ED 7

4 SPD 4

8 REC 7

40 END 36

32 STUN 28

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Examples: Captain America, Batman, Huntress, Black Widow, Green Arrow, Batgirl, Catwoman, Hellcat, Wolverine

 

 

Mentalist

Mystic

Gadgeteer

 

Male Char Female

20 STR 15

18 DEX 20

20 CON 20

12 BODY 10

13 INT 13

18 EGO 20

15 PRE 15

18 COM 18

6 PD 5

4 ED 5

4 SPD 4

8 REC 7

40 END 40

32 STUN 28

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Examples: Green Lantern, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Marvel Girl, Professor X

 

 

Speedster

 

Male Char Female

20 STR 15

23 DEX 26

20 CON 18

12 BODY 10

13 INT 13

11 EGO 14

15 PRE 15

18 COM 18

6 PD 5

4 ED 5

6 SPD 6

10 REC 9

50 END 46

32 STUN 27

Total Characteristics Cost: 125 Points

 

Examples: Flash, Whizzer, Quicksilver, Spitfire

 

 

 

[assault]

Incidentally, if you really want some Silver Age awesomeness, Filmation made a whole bunch of cartoon shorts starring DC characters back in the 60s. Nice, simple versions, including Batman, Robin, Superman and Aquaman, plus a whole bunch of guest stars, including the Teen Titans (Speedy, Wonder Girl, Aqualad and Kid Flash), and the Justice League (Aquaman, Superman, Green Lantern, Hawkman, the Atom, and the Flash).

 

I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation building these characters on 250 points.

 

Although... there was at least one case where Superman pushed the Earth back into orbit (while doing a handstand). At the same time Green Lantern was taking on an alien invasion fleet. So they weren't exactly low powered versions of the characters.

 

Maybe 350 points.

[Greywind]

Regarding the Bat Signal, you need to have a write up for it because Jim Gordon in a DNPC.

 

Contact: Batman 11-

 

10 Points (Let's face it, he's really useful to Gordon).

You don't have to have points for everything.

 

Images 1 hex megascale, only for a single thing.

[assault]

Some thoughts on power levels: the biggest single chunk of heroes in the source material are probably the mystery men - characters who aren't technically superpowered, but use skills and gadgetry to do their thing.

 

There's a similar large category as well - characters with powers that aren't directly related to hurting people or not being hurt. These are folks like Nightcrawler, who, whatever else they do, basically don't hit harder than a normal human, and don't take a bullet any better either.

 

These two categories are worth considering when setting power levels. They have to be viable against thugs - they don't typically die in their first firefight - but they have to be at least notionally vulnerable to them. ("Notionally"). Furthermore, they have to be vulnerable to all the other kinds of things that hurt normal people - without dying inappropriately from them, either. Finally, they have to hang around with characters with various degrees of invulnerability - and not die when the latter are hit with attacks calculated to affect them.

 

There's another factor too - what damage can they put out. In many cases, they will be hitting like a high-end human, or else be using gizmos that perform at a similar level. In a few cases, though, they'll be doing the Cyclops thing, and throwing around attacks that can scrap tanks. That can be a problem. They need to be able to survive such attacks, although there's no particularly reason why they shouldn't get knocked unconscious by them.

 

These kind of characters are typically very suitable for building at starting character point levels. Often Low-Powered Superhuman points will do the job, although higher totals are appropriate for characters with wider ranges of capabilities. Lots of characters can punch as hard as Batman, but few have all the skills, equipment and generally stuff that he has.

 

All of this has implications for other characters too. Attacks need to be calibrated with them in mind (incapacitate, not kill), while defenses can be set to provide the required level of resistance to their attacks.

 

Of course the other consideration is what is the rest of the world like. 5e saw a considerable escalation in this. Tanks, for example, became much tougher than they were before, while there are environmental effects (NND Killing Attacks!) that few superheroes can realistically afford to be invulnerable to.

 

6e has maintained this, although, thankfully, the default setting for Killing Attacks includes a downgraded version of the Stun lottery. This makes "invulnerability" a great deal cheaper.

 

And "invulnerability" is an important effect - without it the "merely human" characters would be meaningless.

[Trebuchet]

I have never liked the Stun Lottery. Sadly, I have also never seen an adequate replacement for the idea. It would take a complete rebuild of the idea of Killing Attacks. I always thought making Killing Attacks an Advantage instead of a distinct Power might be plausible, but that would require an almost complete redesign of the entire damage system in Hero. Probably not worth the effort.

[massey]

If you are modeling characters, then it is important to set a standard. I put 12D6 at about "average" for damage. I write up most characters so they can generate (and take) about that level of damage, at least. Whether it's Nightcrawler or Hawkman, Batman or the Beast, they'll be able to hit the 12DC range. Exactly how they do it will be different, of course. Hawkman probably has a 35 Str or so and a +5D6 Hand Attack mace. The Beast probably has a 40 Str and 15" of Superleap with Passing Strike, or something like that. Batman would have a 25 Str, 3 damage classes with martial arts, and an Offensive Strike. Likewise the standard superhero defense would be somewhere in the 25 range. If you have powers and put on a costume (or advanced training and put on a costume), you should somehow be able to get to around 25 PD/ED most of the time, with at least 10 points or so resistant. Street level heroes might get it through Combat Luck, so it goes away in many circumstances (such as someone getting the drop on them and successfully using the "cover" maneuver), but if they're running around kicking butt then they've got it active.

 

A handful of characters will skew dramatically above, or dramatically below, this damage range. Superman probably can generate up to twice that amount of dice. He's also likely the most powerful hero in his universe, so everyone scales down from him. Other characters, like Shadow Cat, have little offensive ability (last I read her anyway, who knows what they've done with that character lately). I would have no problem giving Kitty a 10 Str and basic martial art moves. Maybe she can punch for 6D6 or something. She'd have a big NND that does body against machines while she is phased, but primarily she's not a front line fighter. Guys who are portrayed as being "not as good" might throw less dice as well. One crossover comic I read had (I think it was) Bullseye getting punched in the face by Batman. He remarked "you punch even harder than Daredevil". There we go, Daredevil throws 11D6 instead of 12 (and I'd put Night Thrasher at a little below him as well). Individual writeups are going to be dependent upon the individual writing them up. Maybe you think Daredevil deserves to hit for standard superhero damage, and maybe he does. Not every Marvel or DC character should outclass everyone from the Champions universe.

 

In addition to damage, you'd have a similar below average/average/above average/way above average rating with regard to Dex, Speed, and combat skill levels. This is where a character like Batman is going to shine. He's going to be above average in Dex and Speed, and way above average in regards to total OCV/DCV. I'd put an average hero at about a 23 Dex/5 Speed, with maybe a level in their primary attack. Batman would be at about a 30 Dex and a 6 or 7 Speed, with enough levels that he can stay on the field with a character like Superman (the Man of Steel, meanwhile, probably voluntarily runs around at 1/2 DCV to make himself a more attractive target for big attacks, to better help his team). In JLA-level combat Batman will operate by maintaining a DCV significantly higher than most characters can consistently hit. He will then use non-traditional attacks (NND gas pellets from his utility belt, Find Weakness, etc). Slower characters like the Blob or Sandman may be somewhere in the 15-18 Dex/4 Speed range. They are noticeably slower than other characters, though they still would have enough combat levels to allow them to connect with an attack most of the time.

 

In the end, these are general guidelines. Individual character writeups will vary according to taste and writer preference. I'm more likely to give characters I like more ability. I also will adapt my writeups depending on how they are going to be used. A playable Batman can be done much cheaper than a comprehensive Batman that can do everything we've ever seen him do. Batman doesn't need Dimensional Physics 18-, but sometimes he seems to have it.

 

Then you'll also get characters who seem to perform above their apparent power scale. Cyclops, for instance, always seems to be one of the last X-Men standing in major battles. Despite the fact that he is a "normal human" with no apparent super-defenses, when I've read comics he usually has a lot of staying power. Maybe he just never gets hit by writer fiat, but to me this is an important part of the character. He serves an important role in the plot, and so survives longer in a fight. I choose to represent this by buying up his Body and Stun significantly, as well as giving him extra levels of Combat Luck. If a standard street level hero has 2 levels of Combat Luck, then Cyke may have 5 levels (with the limitation that some of it only applies when he's fighting with a team or something). So 12 PD/ED, an 8/8 armored costume, and 15 points of Combat Luck give you a hero that can stay strong on the battlefield even if there are guys who can punch Colossus present. Does this make Cyclops significantly more dangerous? Yes it does, but Cyclops isn't an average hero by any means. He's one of the most powerful X-Men, and my writeups will reflect that.

 

When I write up characters, I balance them and then rebalance them until I am happy. It may involve going back in and giving Spider-Man 2 extra PD, because so-and-so has this much and Spidey needs just a tad more to feel right. I've been accused of overpowering my characters. In a multi-comic crossover, the 350 Champions team would probably be relegated to lesser known characters who you see in the background of big fights. "Hey I think I see Defender there in the background! He's getting his face smashed in by Solomon Grundy..."

[Cassandra]

Massey makes my point (I loved you in Desperate Journey, by the way). For him average damage is 12d6, but for me most 250 Point superheroes would be between 8-10d6. Characters like Superman and the Hulk would be on the 12d6 level. while Batman would have 6-8d6. It's all a matter of putting the characters on a level playing field and simulate powers that the characters have without going overboard. DC Comics never did have any self restraint during the Silver Age, giving it's characters a never ending arsenal of powers and skills at the drop of a hat while Marvel began it's continuity. We each build the campaign we like.

 

To quote Emma Peel "It's only a game."

[Cassandra]

I think Cyclops is the last man on the battlefield because of two reasons. One, he has missile defection, and two, he's become enough of a doormat that people just don't notice him anymore.

[assault]

Unfortunately, Cyclops was originally pretty much the star, before he was overshadowed by You Know Who.

 

Anyway, I've currently got Silver Age Robin on my "to do" list. The theory is that while he wasn't a beginning level character in the Silver Age either, he was closer to that power level than Batman. I'm thinking 10 STR, +2 DC on his Martial Arts, giving him an 8 DC Offensive Strike - about right for someone who fights thugs and theme villains.

 

I've already done an analysis of Batman's equipment circa 1964 (courtesy of the relevant Showcase Presents volume) and think that it would be manageable to build. I'd give Robin a fairly basic motorbike - even though he's a kid! - which would cover his mobility requirement.

 

The biggest problem will be skills. He should have lots.

 

Also, unfortunately, much of my "to do" list never gets done. I've got a basic Martian Manhunter on there too, and a powered-up Supergirl, and....

[Trebuchet]

Massey makes my point (I loved you in Desperate Journey, by the way). For him average damage is 12d6, but for me most 250 Point superheroes would be between 8-10d6. Characters like Superman and the Hulk would be on the 12d6 level. while Batman would have 6-8d6. It's all a matter of putting the characters on a level playing field and simulate powers that the characters have without going overboard. DC Comics never did have any self restraint during the Silver Age, giving it's characters a never ending arsenal of powers and skills at the drop of a hat while Marvel began it's continuity. We each build the campaign we like.

 

To quote Emma Peel "It's only a game."

 

The problem with your 12d6 assessment for Superman's damage is that it is flatly contradicted by things we often see him doing with his strength (and I'm not even including the planet-moving Silver Age abomination), such as lifting battleships. That would put him in the 100+ STR range right there.

 

Batman doing 8d6 or so with his martial arts seems reasonable; when he's fighting alongside the Justice League he seems to utilize weapons such as explosive batarangs or electrified brass knuckles, which might put him into the 11-12d6 range.

 

As you correctly point out, Marvel manages the disparate power levels in teams like the Avengers or X-Men much better than DC does. The power difference between Hawkeye and Thor is handled much more reasonably than the difference between Green Arrow and Superman, who usually seems more like an Earth-bound god or plot device than a playable character. I'm not certain the Justice League is playable as a group; but the Avengers? Absolutely.

 

Broad damage spreads can work in Champions; it just takes the right group and GM's who will tailor scenarios so the low-damage characters can shine too. It's not something the rules alone can address; it takes cooperation between the GM(s) and players. As I've stated previously, we have a 9d6 to 17d6 spread in our MidGuard campaign and everybody has a great time. Far from being unhappy that one PC does 17d6 while the next best does only 14d6 and most do 12-13d6, the other players continue to encourage the high-damage character's player to let his PC get even stronger and tougher. Our players self-limit because they have their own concepts of how powerful their characters should be and build accordingly.

 

Since I play the 9d6 character, if anyone has any reason to complain it would be me. But I'm perfectly happy, thrilled even, with the way things are. My favorite comic characters are Captain America and Batman, and my Champions PC Sil'f is in many ways an homage to both of them, particularly Captain America. Making her too tough, or do too much damage, would damage her core concept.

 

[massey]

The other thing to remember about the DC Silver Age is that everybody had crazy stuff. It wasn't just Superman. Batman could have his Bat-Time Portal, and could concoct a formula with a home chemistry set that let him fly and shoot lasers from his hands. Hawkman could use super-science from Thanagar, Green Arrow had trick arrows for literally every occasion, etc. Magic powers, growth rays, shrink gas, all that stuff was available during that time. It's like everyone had a 100 point VPP on an 11- activation for "random plot abilities".

[Cassandra]

More Like VPP No Conscious Control, Massey.