Rules using hex map?

[Zomboner]

Hi HERO community! I'm new to the system, and have a ton of 6E books. If I understand correctly, 5E included rules for using hex maps for combat and such? I'm gearing up to run a quick game soon, and our group usually likes some good map rules. I'm wondering how extensive these map rules were. Is it worth me looking for a 5E HERO rulebook (and if so, which one)? Or was it just that ranges were spelled out in hexes rather than meters? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[Hyper-Man]

All the core rule books are are fairly consistent on this across editions. The biggest change was from 5e where 1 inch = 1 hex (which in turn = 2 meters) was the base unit of measure. 6e just made 1 meter the base unit of measure. The total distances are still the same. In 5e a character has a base 6" Running (6 inches or 6 hexes = 12 meters, same as 6e!). 6e just eliminated the hard coding of what a "hex" was. It can now be whatever scale the GM needs it to be.

[Zomboner]

Ok, that's great to hear! Thanks!

 

Now, did previous editions have detailed rules for facing and cover as there are in D&D? Or was that just a best judgement kind of thing?

[Lucius]

If you have Hero 6E the core books - especially Combat and Adventuring - I think you have all the same "map rules" you'd find in any earlier editions.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

No edition has rules for palindromedaries specifically

[Balabanto]

Champions Complete recommends the classic scale of one hex equalling 2 meters.

[steriaca]

Ok, that's great to hear! Thanks!

 

Now, did previous editions have detailed rules for facing and cover as there are in D&D? Or was that just a best judgement kind of thing?

 

 

Not realy. Unless your using a form of movement with a natural 'turn mode' (like Flying) or adding a limitation to a movement power without a turn mode, you can change your facing without any problem. Cover is in the Combat And Adventuring sections under Behind Cover (witch gives an OCV penatly to the person attacking a covered up by clutter/buildings person).

 

Behind Cover: Champions Complete page 145. Turn Mode Rules (And The Forms Of movement Which Uses Them): Champions Complete page 132.

 

Hope this helps.

[Zomboner]

Thanks a ton to everyone! I think I've got a handle on it.

[ghost-angel]

It's worth a note that one does not need to Face the Direction Of Travel (there's nothing saying you can't be flying 'backwards' from the direction of you are facing forward - except possibly the need to turn around and see where you're going without some 360 Degree Sense.

[JasonPacker]

Out of curiosity - any historical reasoning for why there are no facing rules in Hero? Seems like it would make sense to at least have a notion of how one is facing, for visibility, for avoiding being surprised, and that sort of thing...

[Tom Carman]

There are in fact rules for Surprise (covers the classic attack-from-behind) and Coordinated Attack and Multiple Attacker Bonus (you can't defend as well in several directions at once). Many if not most HERO combats are played out on a hex map with miniatures, which covers issues of "front", "rear" and facing. Just use common sense. Also, HERO is a somewhat generic system, so it probably didn't make sense to have too many special-case rules baked in.

[TheRealDeal]

Facing kind of assumes the combatant is not able to react fast enough to always be facing his next attacker. HERO assumes, for example, you can Block many foes, each is progressively harder, but why would you not be able to turn to face each attack as it comes? This is really more of a gritty vs. cinematic feel, so probably why HERO did not want to default to anything. If you cannot perceive the attack, then you could not face it, but then surprise rules take care of that (and for that matter if you did not see it coming, it could hit you smack in the face from the front and still be just as nasty as from the back). Also if you were overwhelmed with many foes, you would be unable to face each one unless they attacked somewhat uncoordinated, allowing you to deal with each attack piecemeal. But this is a Multiplie Attackers Coordinating issue, which again the rules cover and gives big bonuses for it, simulating your inability to face each one.

 

Facing also, for me, is a bit odd, because it basically means you are frozen in place, unable to move or twist, until your next phase. This may be good for a slow vehicle like a Mech or Tank, but not for a much more agile character.

 

Also Facing adds a new thing to keep track of, and you need to ask, is this new thing to track really worth the effort? Is it adding something to my game? If it is, then you can come up with some house rules for it, but HERO seems to prefer to keep things on a level playing field so those who use Theatre of the Mind and not Hex Maps can also play without being forced to house rule around the fact that facing does not work well in a non-hex map setting. Much easier to just use dramatic sense and decide if an attack get a surprise bonus against you, and then let you decide what exactly happened (you were surprised, you were facing the wrong way, you were too focused on your last target, etc.).

 

The Indirect advantage assumes a sort of back attack anyway many times, so the idea is there, but just no encoded rules for it, since it seems like HERO's motto is keep it as simple as possible and rely on individual groups to make house rules if they desire.

 

Coming from the d20 world, I know that many of the D&D and other such products have extensive rules, and many are rules I did not like, so I house ruled them away. By not including too many optional rules as a core in HERO (but they mention many options in the rules to give GMs ideas) but only those that seem to have reached a critical mass over the 6 editions, the game is able to improve and meet the majority, allowing the minority to use options and house rules if needed.

 

I would, for example, ignore any Facing Rules in HERO if there, as I prefer to just use a simple unified idea of assigning an OCV penalty or bonus based on the creative idea or tactic of a player and then let them describe why the bonus or penalty made sense. If I wanted, say, to simulate maybe like a Golem or Zombie that was slow and could not turn on a dime and face you, I would simply give attackers bonuses to gain surprise +x to OCV against them, but require them to come up with and describe the move they are using to get it. If facing was defined in this case, what would most often happen, since it is a rule at that point, is that players quit trying to be descriptive and just always try to spam the same move over and over (try to get behind him!) because you get a bonus for it, so you cannot blame then that much for it, but that is why I would remove it if it did exist. I want my players to earn their bonuses in the game by description and getting involved, but not by spamming the same moves over and over. If they try to describe the same things over and over, they already know it will fail after the 3rd use (the 2nd I may give a lesser bonus, but the 3rd is just not going to happen).

 

Larry

[psyber624]

What sort of facing rules do you need, anyways? almost every game I have played that dealt with facing in the rules allowed you to pick your facing at the end of a move/turn/phase/whatever. Other than saying you can't change your facing other than during your own phase (which can be implied from the Surprise and Defense Maneuver rules) what more is needed regarding facing?

[bigbywolfe]

What sort of facing rules do you need, anyways? almost every game I have played that dealt with facing in the rules allowed you to pick your facing at the end of a move/turn/phase/whatever. Other than saying you can't change your facing other than during your own phase (which can be implied from the Surprise and Defense Maneuver rules) what more is needed regarding facing?

I completely disagree with the assessment that you can only change your facing during your own Phase. I know very few GMs that will let you play leapfrog and get "surprise" attacks by literally running behind someone who has already seen you and hitting them from behind. In a 1 on 1 battle you don't hit someone and then stand staring in the same direction for 4 seconds while they walk around you and most people don't play the game that way either.

Both Surprise and Defense Maneuver have more to do with awareness than strict facing.

[JasonPacker]

What sort of facing rules do you need, anyways? almost every game I have played that dealt with facing in the rules allowed you to pick your facing at the end of a move/turn/phase/whatever. Other than saying you can't change your facing other than during your own phase (which can be implied from the Surprise and Defense Maneuver rules) what more is needed regarding facing?

I see your reasoning behind the lack of need for facing rules - you're looking at things in terms of what you can do during non-phase segments. While I don't think I'd allow for Surprise from a run-around attack, aren't you making it more difficult for speedsters to do their thing, by getting around behind the badguy and making it harder for him to defend himself? Or even for a skilled swordsman to sidestep into an advantageous position against his opponent, weakening his opponent's ability to respond?

[JasonPacker]

Facing kind of assumes the combatant is not able to react fast enough to always be facing his next attacker. HERO assumes, for example, you can Block many foes, each is progressively harder, but why would you not be able to turn to face each attack as it comes? This is really more of a gritty vs. cinematic feel, so probably why HERO did not want to default to anything. If you cannot perceive the attack, then you could not face it, but then surprise rules take care of that (and for that matter if you did not see it coming, it could hit you smack in the face from the front and still be just as nasty as from the back). Also if you were overwhelmed with many foes, you would be unable to face each one unless they attacked somewhat uncoordinated, allowing you to deal with each attack piecemeal. But this is a Multiplie Attackers Coordinating issue, which again the rules cover and gives big bonuses for it, simulating your inability to face each one.

 

Facing also, for me, is a bit odd, because it basically means you are frozen in place, unable to move or twist, until your next phase. This may be good for a slow vehicle like a Mech or Tank, but not for a much more agile character.

 

Also Facing adds a new thing to keep track of, and you need to ask, is this new thing to track really worth the effort? Is it adding something to my game? If it is, then you can come up with some house rules for it, but HERO seems to prefer to keep things on a level playing field so those who use Theatre of the Mind and not Hex Maps can also play without being forced to house rule around the fact that facing does not work well in a non-hex map setting. Much easier to just use dramatic sense and decide if an attack get a surprise bonus against you, and then let you decide what exactly happened (you were surprised, you were facing the wrong way, you were too focused on your last target, etc.).

 

The Indirect advantage assumes a sort of back attack anyway many times, so the idea is there, but just no encoded rules for it, since it seems like HERO's motto is keep it as simple as possible and rely on individual groups to make house rules if they desire.

 

Coming from the d20 world, I know that many of the D&D and other such products have extensive rules, and many are rules I did not like, so I house ruled them away. By not including too many optional rules as a core in HERO (but they mention many options in the rules to give GMs ideas) but only those that seem to have reached a critical mass over the 6 editions, the game is able to improve and meet the majority, allowing the minority to use options and house rules if needed.

 

I would, for example, ignore any Facing Rules in HERO if there, as I prefer to just use a simple unified idea of assigning an OCV penalty or bonus based on the creative idea or tactic of a player and then let them describe why the bonus or penalty made sense. If I wanted, say, to simulate maybe like a Golem or Zombie that was slow and could not turn on a dime and face you, I would simply give attackers bonuses to gain surprise +x to OCV against them, but require them to come up with and describe the move they are using to get it. If facing was defined in this case, what would most often happen, since it is a rule at that point, is that players quit trying to be descriptive and just always try to spam the same move over and over (try to get behind him!) because you get a bonus for it, so you cannot blame then that much for it, but that is why I would remove it if it did exist. I want my players to earn their bonuses in the game by description and getting involved, but not by spamming the same moves over and over. If they try to describe the same things over and over, they already know it will fail after the 3rd use (the 2nd I may give a lesser bonus, but the 3rd is just not going to happen).

 

Larry

Well, I'd have figured that they'd be considered optional rules, and not forced on anyone. But the game does have a history of using hexes, so it makes sense that they may have been considered at some point and discarded for a particular reason.

 

I like the idea of facing rules because it lends a certain air of realism (I know, I know, sacrilege) to assess penalties based on sighting and relative position, perhaps to penalize the use of a shield when it's out of position or the like. I'm not a fan of just abstracting that sort of thing into the attack roll.

[Greywind]

What sort of facing rules do you need, anyways? almost every game I have played that dealt with facing in the rules allowed you to pick your facing at the end of a move/turn/phase/whatever. Other than saying you can't change your facing other than during your own phase (which can be implied from the Surprise and Defense Maneuver rules) what more is needed regarding facing?

In most cases Surprise should only happen once, usually at the beginning, starting the whole mess. Granted it can occur later if something happens that one side or the other is unprepared for. Such as one combatant thinking the fight is over.

[psyber624]

What sort of facing rules do you need, anyways? almost every game I have played that dealt with facing in the rules allowed you to pick your facing at the end of a move/turn/phase/whatever. Other than saying you can't change your facing other than during your own phase (which can be implied from the Surprise and Defense Maneuver rules) what more is needed regarding facing?

I agree with bigbywolfe as far as known opponents go, but the idea is that if you are facing North vs a current opponent one you do not yet know about that is attacking from the South would likely get the Surprise bonus, but one attacking from the North is much less likely. HERO also has rules pertaining to being attacked from Behind so facing is important (otherwise Defense Maneuver 1 is completely worthless) but this does generally only apply to surprise situations. When I say you cannot change facing outside of your phase I am basically referring to surprise attacks vs facing, sorry if I failed to make that clear.

[Ndreare]

Anywhere were facing does matter in general Hero has rules covering it, such as deviation on area of effect, perception, building and vehicle defenses, surprise, perception, and movement turns.

 

What hero does not have (and it is deliberate) is rules for combat facing saying character X can attack character y based on direction they are facing see volume 2 page 26.

 

I think this is a good thing myself, because I hate it when watching some other games get played were one of the characters is constantly running behind the big bad to get a +2 combat advantage for flanking... I always think if I was the big bad there is no way I would do anything less than kill that skimpy little jerk who keeps jumping behind me.

[bluesguy]

There is an assumption that surprise has to be 'run around the bad guy' and hit them from behind. Just watching this clip of Black Widow (starting at 0:35 and going to ~0:44 seconds) shows off a speedster (high speed & high dexterity) character surprising her opponents in combat.

[bigbywolfe]

There is an assumption that surprise has to be 'run around the bad guy' and hit them from behind. Just watching this clip of Black Widow (starting at 0:35 and going to ~0:44 seconds) shows off a speedster (high speed & high dexterity) character surprising her opponents in combat.

What clip?

 

Pretty sure I specifically argued that that WASN'T surprise.

[Greywind]

There is an assumption that surprise has to be 'run around the bad guy' and hit them from behind. Just watching this clip of Black Widow (starting at 0:35 and going to ~0:44 seconds) shows off a speedster (high speed & high dexterity) character surprising her opponents in combat.

Just because your opponent does something that you didn't expect does not mean that you're surprised. And under no circumstances would I ever class Black Widow as a speedster.

[Trebuchet]

Black Widow is very clearly a Martial Artist; arguably just a 200-250 point agent rather than a true super. If I were building her I wouldn't give any higher than a 5 SPD. She has some nifty gizmos, but nothing about her is superhuman.

[Greywind]

Black Widow is very clearly a Martial Artist; arguably just a 200-250 point agent rather than a true super. If I were building her I wouldn't give any higher than a 5 SPD. She has some nifty gizmos, but nothing about her is superhuman.

Exactly. Highly trained with toys.