I don't understand some of the changes that've been implmented...

[lemming]

Originally posted by Celt

Sweet Monkey Jayzus! Is this still going on?

Pretty incredible huh?

[lemming]

Originally posted by Gary

When one side is making comments that the entire Hero editorial staff should be fired because one example in the book is wrong, there is a natural tendency for the other side to react and push back.

I'm not verifing one way or the other, but does anybody else remember pre-fifth the editorial horror that Hero books tended to be?

+1 Stun Mod on an energy blast, missing stats, descriptions of powers that were not in the writeups. When the developer of Heromaker was typing in characters from the various enemy books, more often than not there'd be a point error.

 

I for one, salute Dan for a fine product. Even if it is in Java.

[Guest Celt]

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

round and round,

round and round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

all through the town.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by zornwil

Looking through 4th, nothing says you can or cannot sell back those unused extra fractional points in SPD. However, that omission, in my mind, means exactly that, we DON'T KNOW the PRECISE intent. Steve Long has interpreted it a certain way - and for all I know, that may be how George McDonald and Patterson and othesr did it. Or it may not be.

 

Its good to own the own the company. When you own the company its your intent that counts. Steve and Co. own the company. McDonald and Patterson sold the company (as did ICE and Cybergames). What they may or may not have intended, or done is irrelevant.

 

The question at this point is "what does 5E have to say about it?" because HD is designed to support 5E.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by D-Man

Its good to own the own the company. When you own the company its your intent that counts. Steve and Co. own the company. McDonald and Patterson sold the company (as did ICE and Cybergames). What they may or may not have intended, or done is irrelevant.

 

The question at this point is "what does 5E have to say about it?" because HD is designed to support 5E.

 

No disagreement, this was just a historical research for its own sake. It has no bearing on how Steve interprets it, nor does it discredit it in any way. Clear?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by zornwil

No disagreement, this was just a historical research for its own sake. It has no bearing on how Steve interprets it, nor does it discredit it in any way. Clear?

 

Sure.

[gewing]

I'm probably about to be horribly flamed, but... Hopefully I won't be banned.

 

Dark CHampions has long been one of my favorite Hero system supplements. It is currently out for random reading when bored. It tends to be in this state. It isn't perfect, but it is very good. I was thrilled when I found out Steve Long was writing 5E.

 

Some of the decisions made for 5E are IMO pretty strange. Some are petty little personal preference issues. That is my problem, house rules can solve most, if not all of them.

 

What really has worried me for some time, though, is that

some of the responses from Mr. Long have been, well, questionable.

 

 

Mr. Long has, imo, sometimes come across as I remember Gary Gygax in my youth. "I wrote the system, and that is all there is to it." THis kind of response tends to elicit a negative response from me.

 

I do know several people who have declined to purchase most of the newer books. This is a shame. The system is still the best I have ever used. I just don't think it is perfect.

 

 

 

Dan seems to write good software, but this is not the first time he has been arguably abusive to what is, apparently, a customer. True the customer is not being fully reasonable, but there is no reason this whole thing has gotten so acrimonious.

 

I very recently bought both Star Hero and Fantasy Hero on the same day, so I am certainly not stopping buying DOJ products, but my enthusiasm has rather waned in the last year. So much so, in fact, that I have considered bowing to the wishes of some of my friends and using d-20 instead. I still hope to convince them to try the FAR superior system, but I am not as rabid about it as I once was.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by gewing

I'm probably about to be horribly flamed, but... Hopefully I won't be banned.

 

No flame from me. Design talent and customer service skills are mutually exclusive. I too have felt the customer service attitude (in terms of tone) could be stronger at times, but I also think the DOJ crowd, in general, does give it the good ol' college try most of the time.

 

I don't like all the changes either (and have house ruled the ones I don't like out of existance). I consider hero to be the head of the pack for many things, but different groups have different play styles and role playing isn't a one size fits all hobby where there is one set of mechanics to rule them all.

 

I do hope DOJ puts more emphasis on "tone management," but when in doubt I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. Still, I have found Darren to be their most level headed and affable mouthpiece to date. Perhaps a respectful and constructive note to him would be the best forum for addressing "customer service complaints."

[Guest Celt]

Frankly I think Simon was abused by the customers in this instance, first in a thread in Hero Designer section, continuing here. Customer Service does not mean employee abuse.

 

I think that Steve Long is right to say sometimes "because that's the way it is". He's always said that GMs and players can do their own thing. It seems to me that people want to get into long drawn out debates with him over the reasons for certain changes and I'm guessing he just doesn't have the time.

[Phraze]

Originally posted by Celt

Frankly I think Simon was abused by the customers in this instance, first in a thread in Hero Designer section, continuing here. Customer Service does not mean employee abuse.

 

Simon wasn't abused. Melessqr complained about changes to the rules that made it more expensive to buy speed, especially in cases where DEX and SPD both increase OIHID. Simon then said melessqr was wrong on everything, that a) it wasn't really more expensive (and posted about three pages of examples that showed he really didn't understand the issue), and it wasn't a change because the rules have been this way forever (which prompted the discussions of earlier editions of the rules), and c) you'd know all this if you'd only read the online FAQ which is about as long as the rules themselves, and d) it doesn't matter what you think because I didn't write HD for you, I wrote it for Steve Long.

 

I'm on the verge of starting to run Hero again after a long absence (2 editions worth). I've got FrED, but both the errata and the FAQ are so enormous that I'll probably blow them off. If this means I'm playing wrong, oh well. I won't be wasting my time with HD either.

[JmOz]

Hero Designer is a good program.

 

Dan tends to think (IMO IME) that everyone should know what he does, and that his way is right. Further more he tends to get defensive, and when he gets defensive he tends to behave badly.

 

Steve tends to try to prevent abuse in his answers to questions, in FRED he tended to provide pstions (Thus allowing abuses), this is the way it is. I feel a lot of his answers on issues should have been "That's a GM dessision, that should be based on how he wants to run his game, I would do it like this ________________". This would change a lot of Rules from RULES to OPINIONS, a distinction that is needed IMO. Now the Hero Books would be done based on his OPINIONS, this is an advantage to owning the company, but it would not be considered the one right way to do things.

 

For example I still say the perfect way to have a Cyclops character is to use VarLim on him, one slot is always on, one slot is Side effects: Blind, another is OIF, and finnaly IAF. According to Steve you should do a long and complicated proccess to represent this of buying off limitations. His way works, and I would not turn a player down for having it, but by saying you can't use VarLim for Foci he has turned what I feel should have been an OPINION on the best way to do a F/X to a RULE.

[Simon]

As someone has stated, this whole mess played out over the course of several threads (this one and a pair in the HD forum).

 

It started out in the HD forum with a question posted saying that HD was doing things wrong because it wouldn't allow the selloff of partial speed.

 

I explained that the way HD was doing things was correct according to the rules of the system. This statement was questioned and quite some time was spent on this subject, starting with statements that it's not a rule, that FREd explicitly states that you can, etc. I pointed out the FAQ entry. Quite a bit of time was spent going over such concepts as "the FAQ entry is unclear" or "the FAQ is invalid because it's not in the printed book and should not be considered part of the rules" or "the FAQ entries are mutually contradictory" and so on.

 

This went on for some time. There were even suggestions made (by both sides) for working around this issue in HD if you didn't want to follow that rule. More arguments and complaints followed these suggestions.

 

Throughout this, there was the continued theme of questioning that this was a rule at all. I suggested that if they doubted my word that it was a rule, that they do what I had done many times: talk to Steve about it. This is where things got weird, as Melessqr stated that he had no doubt Steve would back up my statements and verify the rule.....apparently we were still stuck on "it's not explicitly stated in the rule book, so it doesn't exist".

 

There was continued conversation from here, but very little of substance.

 

Throughout all of this, others were chiming in with various ideas. Where those ideas contained errors in calculations (or misunderstandings in how multiple purchases of DEX affected SPD, or how experience expenditures figured in) I pointed out those errors and at least attempted to explain how things were intended to work, according to the rules.

 

Why me? Because I have, arguably, one of the better understandings of the rules in this area due to my work on HD. I had to get it right very early on and have spent a LOT of time going over the rules with Steve, making sure that I understood exactly how things are supposed to work.

 

I even talked to Steve during the course of this conversation, making sure that I still had things right and verifying the rules that I was posting.

 

So....that's a rough summary of the three threads in question.

 

Note: I have left out any mention of snide comments or insults back and forth and have tried to keep it as objective as possible.

 

It's up to you to go through the threads and decide on what you feel of the tone.

 

I am (thankfully) not in customer service. I am not paid to sit around and take abuse and return it with a smile. I have a great amount of respect for those that do....they've got an extremly difficult and thankless job.

 

Many would (and have) argued that, despite my statements that I am not in customer service, that I am in such a role. I have yet to see any contract that I signed which places me in that role.

 

I am a contractor, hired on by Hero Games to write a piece of software. That's all, nothing more.

 

When someone comes at me with what I feel is an abusive attitude (note the phrasing here: what I feel), I throw it right back at them. Often harder than they do.

 

Does this make me an ass? Probably. Truth is, I really don't care. I go home happy at the end of the day.

 

If you decide that you don't want to purchase HD because I won't sit around and take abuse from people (or if you don't think that I took any abuse and I just went off on some poor, undeserving soul), that's fine. It's absolutely your perogative.

 

I never wrote HD for the money. There is not a chance that I will ever make enough money off of it to justify the time that I've spent coding it. Even if I were to have taken in 100% of the price on all sales, this wouldn't be the case.....the market simply isn't big enough for that. This doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

I wrote HD because I love the Hero System. I wrote HD because I wanted to see a chargen that made character creation easy while also following all the myriad rules and regulations that are contained in the rule book, supplements, FAQ, etc. Such a beast has never existed for the Hero System.

 

I am extremely gratified that other people seem to like HD and find it useful. I think that it's a great compliment. But I also realize that it's not for everyone. This is fine. If you decide that you don't want to purchase HD, by all means, don't buy it. If you don't want to purchase any product that is developed by someone who you feel is an ass, that's fine....don't purchase it. Neither your purchase or your lack thereof will change the way I deal with people. I am perfectly happy with the way I deal with people and have no desire to change it.

[nHammer]

I won't be wasting my time with HD either.

 

Then you are missing out on a very good resource for the Hero System. A resource that should be able to handle quite a few house rules when v2 becomes availible.

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Simon

 

I am (thankfully) not in customer service. I am not paid to sit around and take abuse and return it with a smile. I have a great amount of respect for those that do....they've got an extremly difficult and thankless job.

 

Many would (and have) argued that, despite my statements that I am not in customer service, that I am in such a role. I have yet to see any contract that I signed which places me in that role.

 

I am a contractor, hired on by Hero Games to write a piece of software. That's all, nothing more.

 

 

Do you deal with customers on a product you represent YES or NO?

 

IF YES: then you are in customer Service.

 

The simple fact is that when you respond to these threads, you put yourself in a customer service capasity, and I think we will both agree it is not where you have an aptitude.

[Simon]

Originally posted by JmOz

Do you deal with customers on a product you represent YES or NO?

 

IF YES: then you are in customer Service.

 

The simple fact is that when you respond to these threads, you put yourself in a customer service capasity, and I think we will both agree it is not where you have an aptitude.

I disagree. I post on these boards just like anybody else.

 

Just because I wrote a product for Hero Games does not mean that the way I post or the way I act is suddenly changed.

 

Regardless of what you think, I am not in customer service. Nor will I ever be, if I have my way.

[JmOz]

No but you answer questions about it

 

Sorry if you don't like it but that means you are doing customer service (The act of supporting your program to the public means you are doing customer service, you can't seperate them)

 

This sounded better in my head than it does in written word, as that may be I think my point is clear, and now I am leaving this thread. I will read it so I am not misinterpred or to answer direct questions, but I know you can be stuborn on this point (I feel it is a state of denial actualy) so will not continue trying to make you see the truth.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Simon

I am extremely gratified that other people seem to like HD and find it useful. I think that it's a great compliment. But I also realize that it's not for everyone. This is fine. If you decide that you don't want to purchase HD, by all means, don't buy it. If you don't want to purchase any product that is developed by someone who you feel is an ass, that's fine....don't purchase it. Neither your purchase or your lack thereof will change the way I deal with people. I am perfectly happy with the way I deal with people and have no desire to change it.

Dan, I like Hero Designer. I must like it as I have written several hundred characters, and package deals, and templates for it. There are only 3 things I do not like about the software:

 

#1: It is slow on my computer. For some reason my computer configuration has never liked Java. It takes me a long time to load characters, it takes me a long to to switch characters, and it even takes me a long time to make characters. I am sure I could have done the character packs in half the time if I were not always having to open and close the program in the middle of larger characters. And I do not have a small computer system.

 

#2: It does not take into account all the rules from the FAQ and many "official" campaign specific variables that have been added for the various setting books. I think the official CharGen software should have the ability to make characters for the official settings. While version 2 is better at that than version 1 is, it still leaves much out, IMO.

 

#3: It is not easily customizable. I would imagine fully 75% of the people who use the CharGen software use it with house rules and in other less book legal ways. The fact that everything unusual needs to be done with a Custom Power/Skill etc. is irksome and clunky. Such a great piece of software should not need to have 5-6 clunky entries per character, IMO. So while having a rules-legal software is great, it is really not what most of the buyers want from a CharGen, IMO.

 

I have no problem supporting Hero Games here. I want the company to succeed, it is just difficult at times to want one thing and to have to realize that this is all you will get.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Monolith

Dan, I like Hero Designer. I must like it as I have written several hundred characters, and package deals, and templates for it. There are only 3 things I do not like about the software:

 

#1: It is slow on my computer. For some reason my computer configuration has never liked Java. It takes me a long time to load characters, it takes me a long to to switch characters, and it even takes me a long time to make characters. I am sure I could have done the character packs in half the time if I were not always having to open and close the program in the middle of larger characters. And I do not have a small computer system.

 

#2: It does not take into account all the rules from the FAQ and many "official" campaign specific variables that have been added for the various setting books. I think the official CharGen software should have the ability to make characters for the official settings. While version 2 is better at that than version 1 is, it still leaves much out, IMO.

 

#3: It is not easily customizable. I would imagine fully 75% of the people who use the CharGen software use it with house rules and in other less book legal ways. The fact that everything unusual needs to be done with a Custom Power/Skill etc. is irksome and clunky. Such a great piece of software should not need to have 5-6 clunky entries per character, IMO. So while having a rules-legal software is great, it is really not what most of the buyers want from a CharGen, IMO.

 

I have no problem supporting Hero Games here. I want the company to succeed, it is just difficult at times to want one thing and to have to realize that this is all you will get.

1: v2 should help that substantially. I've spent a fair bit of time re-writing the underlying engine and optimizing things for large characters, multiple characters, and switching between characters.

 

2: If you point out the areas where HD does not implement rules, I'll either get them added in, or let you know why they aren't in. There are some instances where Steve has told me not to put some items in as he does not want to enforce them that strongly yet.....there are others where it's not so much a rule as a potential workaround that he's proposed for someone and he would rather not include it in the form of a hard rule in the software....I'll let you know when those come up.

 

3: A lot of the idea behind the campaign rules section in v2 is meant to address this. The campaign rules are currently able to change a fair number of things in the system (turning on and off various rules, setting levels, etc.). As time goes on, I'm sure that I will be adding to the list of items in the campaign rules....that's just a matter of folks posting what they'd like to see.

 

I'd prefer it if you kept any specific suggestions for HD to the HD forums, as I'm likely to lose track of them here....

[melessqr]

As time goes on, I'm sure that I will be adding to the list of items in the campaign rules....that's just a matter of folks posting what they'd like to see.

 

I'd like to see the ability to buy and sell off fractional points of SPD, Please.

 

Melessqr

[Simon]

Originally posted by JmOz

No but you answer questions about it

 

Sorry if you don't like it but that means you are doing customer service (The act of supporting your program to the public means you are doing customer service, you can't seperate them)

 

This sounded better in my head than it does in written word, as that may be I think my point is clear, and now I am leaving this thread. I will read it so I am not misinterpred or to answer direct questions, but I know you can be stuborn on this point (I feel it is a state of denial actualy) so will not continue trying to make you see the truth.

My answering questions on the software means that I am performing some of the same functions that a customer service representative would perform. This is true (no argument here). But it does not mean that I am in customer service.

 

In the same way that you are not in customer service for Hero Games. You have answered many questions for folks on these boards. You've answered rules questions, you've even answered some questions on HD in the past.

 

This doesn't mean you are Hero Games' customer service department. It means you are a user of the system who is fairly knowledgable and who has opted to help folks out.

 

I am in the same role: I am a user of the system. I am very knowledgable on some areas of the system and am extremely knowledgable on HD. So I answer questions on them.

 

Performing some of the same roles as a customer service representative does not make one a customer service representative.

[Simon]

Originally posted by melessqr

I'd like to see the ability to buy and sell off fractional points of SPD, Please.

 

Melessqr

Easy: use a Custom Power.

[melessqr]

The Logo under your name, and administrative abilities make you, defacto, a representative of the company. I would never have anyone with the people skill you have representing my company.

 

If you want to be Just Another Poster, then get rid of your logo and sacrifice your administrative access. Otherwise, deal with being a representative of the company and develope a little decorum.

 

Melessqr

[Simon]

Originally posted by melessqr

The Logo under your name, and administrative abilities make you, defacto, a representative of the company. I would never have anyone with the people skill you have representing my company.

 

If you want to be Just Another Poster, then get rid of your logo and sacrifice your administrative access. Otherwise, deal with being a representative of the company and develope a little decorum.

 

Melessqr

The logo under my name is the logo for Hero Designer, an application that I wrote. I use the logo with the permission of Hero Games. It does not make me a part of Hero Games.

 

I have stated often that I am not a part of Hero Games; I am a contractor who has been hired in to do various programming projects for Hero Games.

 

Among those projects are such things as writing some portions of this website (hence the administrative access to these boards), writing Hero Designer, and others.

 

If you choose to take this as my being a representative of Hero Games, despite my statements to the contrary, that's your own lookout. Have at it. But it won't change the way I behave, the logo that I use, or the access that I have on my own server.

[nHammer]

Originally posted by Celt

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

round and round,

round and round.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,

all through the town.

 

I just thought this needed to be said again..

 

It would be nice if the Hero Game message boards had moderators, so that threads that have become completely pointless, like this one, would get closed.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by D-Man

Its good to own the own the company. When you own the company its your intent that counts. Steve and Co. own the company. McDonald and Patterson sold the company (as did ICE and Cybergames). What they may or may not have intended, or done is irrelevant.

 

The question at this point is "what does 5E have to say about it?" because HD is designed to support 5E.

 

If I recall correctly, somewhere along the line someone claimed that it had always been intended the way that Steve is now ruling on it. Personally, I can't find any reference in 4th to indicate either way, and I would be interested in knowing what the original creators of the game thought.