Trying to Understand 6E

[CaptCastle]

Ok, I haven't played Champions since 3rd Edition. I haven't bought books since 4th Edition. I now have Hero System (vol. 1 and 2), Champions Villains vol. 1 and Champions Complete. Rather than use the older books, I want to go with 6E. So, I have started reading the books and it looks a bit different than what I am used to. I need some clarification and if any one can give that to me that would be great. So as I understand it characters now are built on 400 points that they can distribute however they choose (attributes, skills, powers, whatever), according to the guideline table. Each character also takes 75 points of complications to help develop and/or flesh out the character. However, if the player doesn't use all 400 points, they can buy off complications. Likewise experience can go towards getting rid of complications as well. Am I understanding all that correctly?

 

Also, I would like some clarification on this. Say I wanted to make the player characters part of a team, Justice League, Legion of Super-Heroes, Avengers types, whatever. I can opt to give each player perks such as a radio communicator and flight ring without them spending points. I give the same thing to each pc and npc, more for flavor than anything but also a certain amount of usefulness. However, because I gave those things to the players/non-players they are subject to being broken, lost, taken away or whatever at any time. Is that the gist of it? Thanks.

[brionl]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I really wonder what they were thinking with that change. It's probably caused more confusion than anything else.

 

If you have "400pts w/75pts complications", then you really only have 325pts. To spend more than 325 points, you need to take complications. If you take 25pts of complications, then you can get up to 350 total. And so on up to 400.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Basically. It's more accurate to say the GM can give or take as he pleases, keeping in mind that it is his responsibility to provide a fun and reasonably balanced play experience for the players.

[Tasha]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I really wonder what they were thinking with that change. It's probably caused more confusion than anything else.

 

If you have "400pts w/75pts complications", then you really only have 325pts. To spend more than 325 points, you need to take complications. If you take 25pts of complications, then you can get up to 350 total. And so on up to 400.

 

One thing is to de emphasize the idea that Disadvantages should be punitive by calling them Complications. Also to make them a more positive thing for your character. Something you buy because they round out your charater, not something that's an afterthought that you have to buy to get extra points.

 

Also if you haven't played before, 400 total points is actually LESS confusing than saying 325 base points +75 points in Disads. It's only confusing to Hero gamers who were used to the other way.

[Tasha]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Also' date=' I would like some clarification on this. Say I wanted to make the player characters part of a team, Justice League, Legion of Super-Heroes, Avengers types, whatever. I can opt to give each player perks such as a radio communicator and flight ring without them spending points. I give the same thing to each pc and npc, more for flavor than anything but also a certain amount of usefulness. However, because I gave those things to the players/non-players they are subject to being broken, lost, taken away or whatever at any time. Is that the gist of it? Thanks.[/quote']

 

As GM I would give the PC's those items and not make them buy them out of their 400points. I would treat them as if they had bought them with their points. As mandated items, I wouldn't penalize them by making them sink their points into the items. I MIGHT also be willing as GM to allow the PC's to take the real cost of the items as extra points (for characters that Fly and have radio transmit and recieve built into their power base). I wouldn't treat those mandated items like I would other "Free Equipment". I would allow the Flight Rings and Headsets to be as durable as any power bought by the character.

[CaptCastle]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Ok, so 400 = 325 character points and 75 complication points. I see now, so nothing has really changed as far as end result. The changes are more or less semantics, and really the same as it's always been. Just a bit more confusing because of a slight change in the Champions vernacular.

 

As far as mandated items, I wasn't going to make players spend against their points for small things like communicators or flight rings. Not really sure what to do about characters who already have those abilities built into their base. The mandated items were going to be very minimal as far as what they can accomplish, and I just figured that characters who's powers exceeded the capabilities of mandated items would just choose not to use them. I hadn't thought so much about durability as my real intent was flavor and to fill in holes that may rise from characters not being able to move or communicate.

 

Also, once we get a few sessions in, I'm sure the subject of things like bases and vehicles will come up.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

If your players put redundant points into stuff covered by your freebies, one way to address is to occasionally make them non-reduntant. Like, have a gadgeteer villain unleash a gizmo that Suppresses all those flight rings -- but he didn't count on the physical wings possessed by the terrific Titmouse!

[Lucius]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

One thing is to de emphasize the idea that Disadvantages should be punitive by calling them Complications. Also to make them a more positive thing for your character. Something you buy because they round out your charater, not something that's an afterthought that you have to buy to get extra points.

 

Also if you haven't played before, 400 total points is actually LESS confusing than saying 325 base points +75 points in Disads. It's only confusing to Hero gamers who were used to the other way.

 

I've never known anyone to be confused by expressing Base Points plus Points for Disads as exactly what it is. I have also seen similar systems in other games, called things like "merits and flaws."

 

I have known people to be confused by the Sixth edition's practice of obfuscation. In particular, people have come to the forums asking for an explanation of just what "matching complications" are supposed to match.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that it's like trying to do accounting if there's a taboo on ever referencing Owner's Equity

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Another idea I've seen put forth on this board is that Complications being thought of as player designated plot hooks. If a player builds a character with a Secret Identity he's telling the GM "I would like to deal with the complications of my character's dual life in game".

[Balabanto]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

As GM I would give the PC's those items and not make them buy them out of their 400points. I would treat them as if they had bought them with their points. As mandated items' date=' I wouldn't penalize them by making them sink their points into the items. I MIGHT also be willing as GM to allow the PC's to take the real cost of the items as extra points (for characters that Fly and have radio transmit and recieve built into their power base). I wouldn't treat those mandated items like I would other "Free Equipment". I would allow the Flight Rings and Headsets to be as durable as any power bought by the character.[/quote']

 

As GM, I would charge them the points for the radios. They should be paid for as soon as the heroes become a real team with a base and the like. The problem is that people abuse the privilages of however many points these items cost, and often, people use their skills indiscriminately to abuse them. It's only 7 points or so for a decent radio. Eat the cost or shout at your fellow PCs across long distances.

[assault]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Giving them freebies is really just another way of saying that they start off on a few more points, except that the GM gets to determine how the extra points are spent.

 

Taxing their experience points serves little or no purpose.

[Balabanto]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

This is a player behavior thing. It depends on what players feel is normal.

[Greywind]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

"I'm forcing you to join this group, as characters. You'll have to spend X points on the following."

 

"Dude, that sucks. I already spent all my points building the character I want."

 

"Well, you'll just have to go without any XP for the next 20 or so sessions until you pay back the deficit."

[Tasha]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Another idea I've seen put forth on this board is that Complications being thought of as player designated plot hooks. If a player builds a character with a Secret Identity he's telling the GM "I would like to deal with the complications of my character's dual life in game".

 

Thanks that expresses what I was thinking of better.

[Tasha]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

"I'm forcing you to join this group, as characters. You'll have to spend X points on the following."

 

"Dude, that sucks. I already spent all my points building the character I want."

 

"Well, you'll just have to go without any XP for the next 20 or so sessions until you pay back the deficit."

 

Exactly. It comes off as being punitive for the cost of a few points that everyone gets. That's why I would allow those who already paid for similar abilities as the Foci gives be allowed to spend those extra points for other things. It is like I said '425point characters. 25 of those points are going to be spent on a legion flight ring and Comunication dots. Players who have characters with those similar abilities can either keep the items for emergencies and to use as you see fit or they can cash in those items for 25 pts to be spent as determined in a discussion with me the GM" or something similar and for something that is edited better for clarity.

[Lucius]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I think I agree with what Tasha's saying, except that those "extra" points should go towards "extras" rather than, say, more Skill levels; things like gadgets the character would reasonably lose if they left the group. I'm not sure, but I think that's what she's getting at.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

So the palindromedary goes with me but the shatarnal cannon stays with the team

[Greywind]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

If the GM is going to mandate equipment for a team, the mandated equipment can be part of the obligation to the team.

 

Radio? Team funds.

 

Rep? Part of the team. Players can buy it up higher if they wish, but if they leave the team, they only get what they bought themselves and changes from "Member" to "former Member".

 

Access? Access to team databases. Quit and you no longer have the access.

 

If the GM is going to insist all the players have these, why can't the GM just suck it up and let them have it? None of it is Game Breaking.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

If the GM is going to mandate equipment for a team, the mandated equipment can be part of the obligation to the team.

 

Radio? Team funds.

 

Rep? Part of the team. Players can buy it up higher if they wish, but if they leave the team, they only get what they bought themselves and changes from "Member" to "former Member".

 

Access? Access to team databases. Quit and you no longer have the access.

 

If the GM is going to insist all the players have these, why can't the GM just suck it up and let them have it? None of it is Game Breaking.

 

This is they way I've seen it done as well. The caveat that should be clear is that since the PC's have not paid any points yet, they are not in complete control of any of it. 'Secure' communication gear? Maybe it is secure from Joe Public and even the Police but some private benefactor might have access. etc....

[CaptCastle]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

This is where I am at. To start with I only have 2 players atm. Based on what they want for characters, both will already have flight so the rings are kind of a moot point. Just me being nostalgic for the LSH more than anything. As far as forcing them to join a team, I won't do that. If they so choose to remain separate from a team that is their choice. However, there are advantages to belonging to such. Personally, I would never punish players by making them go without something because they used all their points in creation.

 

The other situation I am dealing with, both my players will be first time RPers. The last thing I want to do is fall in GM traps of railroading players to what I want or giving them a big list of what they cant do. IMO, that's not the way to have a good time in an RPG. That is another reason I have no issue giving them things like flight rings or communicators. Heck, if THEY like the team idea I might even come up with a uniform that gives them a bonus or two. My first Champions book I ever owned came in the 2nd Edition of the game. I remember something there about occasionally giving players things for flavor.

 

I'm not a bean counter when it comes to points. IMO the super-hero genre is the best in the world, and as long as everyone is having fun, being challenged and the game is balanced that's what is important to me. If that means I have to give a freebie or two, so be it. Especially if it exemplifies the genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I really wonder what they were thinking with that change. It's probably caused more confusion than anything else.

 

If you have "400pts w/75pts complications", then you really only have 325pts. To spend more than 325 points, you need to take complications. If you take 25pts of complications, then you can get up to 350 total. And so on up to 400.

 

I would have left the discussion of "you can have less complications if you reduce your base points" out entirely. Then, in Powers, I would add "Reduced Complications" - for every point spent, your required Complications are reduced by 1 point. All characters have 400 points. If you want no complications, you spend 75 of those 400 points on Reduced Complications.

 

As to the freebies, points work best as a mechanism balancing between the PC's. If all PC's get the same added benefits, they're still balanced between one another. Often, those bennies just make the GM's life easier. They can travel around the world (or between worlds) nearly instantly? That means the GM can run scenarios with huge distances travelled in a short time. If giant monsters are attacking Tokyo right now, the PC's can respond. If they did not have that Travel Benny, would the GM play a game where the PC's hear about giant monsters attacking Tokyo, and arrive a couple of days later after booking conventional air travel, or would the PC's get to their desitnation in time to participate in the adventure anyway?

[Epiphanis]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I don't believe a 325 point character with no complications will generally be the equal of a 400 point character with 75 points of complications. I think it is better all around to phrase it as 400 with 75 that can be bought off later if the player wishes; otherwise the 325 player will limp with an underpowered character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I don't believe a 325 point character with no complications will generally be the equal of a 400 point character with 75 points of complications. I think it is better all around to phrase it as 400 with 75 that can be bought off later if the player wishes; otherwise the 325 player will limp with an underpowered character.

 

If a 325 point character with no complications will be underpowered compared to a 400 point character with 75 points of complications, won't a 400 point character with no complications because he bought them off later be

underpowered compared to a 475 point character with 75 points of complications who spent his xp on additional abilities? I don't want to require PC's avoid or buy off complications, but the rules should (as always) present options, not close them off.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Base: 325

Plus

Complications: 74

Equals

Total: 400

 

KISS

 

QM

[Ice9]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

I don't think you need to worry much about the free equipment. I guess if the flight rings provide a good flight speed, then someone with inherent flying powers is losing out a little, but they know that's part of the campaign, so there's no reason they would be spending much points on it anyway. If someone does seem to be missing out, you could let them take a different piece of team equipment instead.

 

But inherently, any free resources are going to be more useful to some characters than others. Team gets a base with state of the art medical systems? Doesn't really help the guy who regenerates himself. It's not usually a big issue.

[Greywind]

Re: Trying to Understand 6E

 

Base: 325

Plus

Complications: 74

Equals

Total: 400 399

 

KISS

 

QM

Fixed that for you.