Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

[Leeland]

Greetings, i wanted to know if it is possible to build a power that allows one to mindcontrol NPCs and works better the dumber the NPC is.

 

So it would work very well on mindless critters like animals and the like, but the more sentient the target is, the harder it gets.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Sure, just define the Mind Control to work against INT instead of EGO. Depending on the relative INT and EGO of targets in the campaign, the GM might decide that to be a slight advantage, slight limitation, or neutral. If the campaign is an alien invasion scenario where primary adversaries are hyper-intelligent extraterrestrials, that's clearly a limitation. But if you are playing in a post-apocalyptic world where the major threats to the characters are wild mutated beasts, then it would likely be an advantage.

[Christopher]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

As Ockham said. "Based on Con" is already an example and it asumes that usually Con is higher than Ego (most superhero games certainly are true to that. Most Heroic games propably also) and has also a few other limitations thrown into it (OCV vs. DCV, Mental Defense switched to Physical Defense, ...)

However I have no information how much or little INT animals have. They might have considerable scores, as it benefits Perception Rolls and Several Skills (like Survival, Tracking). Afaik "animal Stupidity" is mostly done via a Complication called "Animal Intelligence".

 

Another option might be to switch the Defense. Instead of being blocked by "Mental Defense", it's blocked by Intelligence. Or Maybe INT-10 (so that average Joe has no point).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

That works, or...

 

+Xd6 if target INT under 10 (-1, maybe: lots of norms, not many 'real' opponents.

 

Or target INT counts as mental defence (-1)

[psyber624]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Don't forget the appropriate Class of Minds adders if you actually want to affect animals with this power.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Champions Complete is getting rid of Class of Mind, so in a month that won't be an issue.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

I would buy 40 dice of armor-piercing (or AVLD) mind control.

 

then the limitations pile on: basically one of those dice is usable per point of INT away from 41 of the target.

at 41 or higher INT, they evade you automatically.

 

and those last few dice should be dirt cheap, like -4 limitation or so.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Champions Complete is getting rid of Class of Mind' date=' so in a month that won't be an issue.[/quote']

 

is that 7th edition, or 6.5 ?

[phoenix240]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

That works, or...

 

+Xd6 if target INT under 10 (-1, maybe: lots of norms, not many 'real' opponents.

 

I think this works best and easiest with RAW. You could even build it so that the lower the target's Intellect the more dice are used

 

6D6 Mind control

 

+x if Targets Int below 20

 

+x if Target's Int below 10

 

or something like that up to the game's max.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

is that 7th edition' date=' or [b']6.5[/b] ?

There is not a new edition coming out. Champions Complete will have a few minor changes. Class of Minds being eliminated is arguably the biggest, and in my opinion is a foolish change since it means all mentalists will be able to control humans, animal, and machines unless they take a Limitation (thus making mentalists and technomancers cheaper), and since the value of that Limitation will vary greatly depending on campaign it will be left completely up to the GM (and probably not even spelled out in the amount of detail I'm puting in here).

[psyber624]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

In all honesty CC seems to be more along the lines of "Heros Lite" than a new version. The only things that change are really rules simplifications so while "class of minds" isn't present in CC I wouldn't necessarily rule it as "removed from the game" but more along the lines of an advanced rule that a GM may or may not choose to use. Of course CC doesn't even mention class of minds so a GM would have to have access to another rule book (or the forums) to even realize there is a distinction.

 

That's just me of course. It will be interesting to see how the community handles the rules simplifications.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

1. CC is not a new version. Period. It is considered 6th Edition.

2. CC is the new core book. It will have all of the core rules, unlike Hero System Basic.

[Christopher]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

I think this works best and easiest with RAW. You could even build it so that the lower the target's Intellect the more dice are used

 

6D6 Mind control

 

+x if Targets Int below 20

 

+x if Target's Int below 10

 

or something like that up to the game's max.

APG I 139 has "Proportional" Advantage/Limitation.

It is basically the same of buying "extra power, only in limited circumstances" - but as an advantage. It can really help if you want to squeeze this power into a Framework.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

I think this works best and easiest with RAW. You could even build it so that the lower the target's Intellect the more dice are used

 

6D6 Mind control

 

+x if Targets Int below 20

 

+x if Target's Int below 10

 

or something like that up to the game's max.

 

This is roughly how I'd do it as well.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Back in the day you just changed Mind Control from working against Ego to working against Int. Done and done. Has the Hero System gotten so convoluted that we have to go this route?

[Greywind]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Well, yes.

[phoenix240]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Back in the day you just changed Mind Control from working against Ego to working against Int. Done and done. Has the Hero System gotten so convoluted that we have to go this route?

 

I suggested a partially limited power because the OP seemed to suggest that the MC was still a Mental Power in nature, still worked against Mental Defense, would be affected by the target's will, etc but was easier (or more powerful, IOW) against targets that were less intelligent for whatever reason. I don't see a reason why you couldn't change the targeted Characteristic to Int, perhaps for a small Limitation (Int, IME, tends to be higher than Ego for non mentalists in Champions) but that might represent a different sfx.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

is that 7th edition' date=' or [b']6.5[/b] ?

 

6.1, if anything.

[Leeland]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Thanks for all the great ideas.

 

i think i will go with

+2d6 if target INT under 10

+2d6 if target INT under 6 (stacking with the above)

 

How much should this cost?

[Christopher]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Back in the day you just changed Mind Control from working against Ego to working against Int. Done and done. Has the Hero System gotten so convoluted that we have to go this route?

Could you perhaps look at the first answer after the OP?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

Back in the day you just changed Mind Control from working against Ego to working against Int. Done and done. Has the Hero System gotten so convoluted that we have to go this route?

 

I find that more convoluted than limited extra dice.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

I find that more convoluted than limited extra dice.

how so?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

how so?

 

It's changing the basic way the power works. Mind Control works against Ego; I'm not even aware of any rules that let you change the stat it works against in official materials (insert 'I stopped at 5e disclaimer). I also don't see that as being accurate, since the power is still 'my will over your will', which is Ego targeting ego. I don't see extra dice of Mind Control with a limitation to be any more convoluted than extra dice of Energy Blast with a limitation, and that's been around forever.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

It's changing the basic way the power works. Mind Control works against Ego; I'm not even aware of any rules that let you change the stat it works against in official materials (insert 'I stopped at 5e disclaimer). I also don't see that as being accurate' date=' since the power is still 'my will over your will', which is Ego targeting ego. I don't see extra dice of Mind Control with a limitation to be any more convoluted than extra dice of Energy Blast with a limitation, and that's been around forever.[/quote']

 

They're both stats, they would work the same way. There was mental ability affects CON before - I believe in 4th ed; for truth serum and the like.

I know this (INT rather than EGO) was in the APG as well usually used as a "Thought Puzzle/Logic Puzzle" so there is that precedent as well.

 

Your second argument is better, but could easily be an argument on SFX rather than effect; and it still doesn't make it less complex since your having to build the power partially limited.

 

Mind you neither version strikes me as terribly complex - both solutions can fit on one line. Nor does either strike me as clunky.

[psyber624]

Re: Mindcontrol: the dumber, the easier

 

For the cost structure, if its 10 and under then (-1/2), if its under 10 (-1), under 6 (-1 1/2). 10 is the starting point for INT in HERO so having 10 INT should be fairly common, but going under that (ie selling back INT) should be quite a bit rarer. Of course this is one of those modifiers that is HEAVILY campaign dependent. If your GM doesn't bother pointing out most normals you come across (and I honestly never met one that did) you should base the "discount" on how often you want the power to work and let your GM know this. (or let him tell you, either way works.) IE at (-1) you will find most people don't get hit by your "extra dice". At -2 you will almost never find someone who can be affected. Of course if your intending this to be useable on animals that changes things as well (under 10 becomes -1/2 to -1, under 6 becomes -1 tops) because while finding PEOPLE under 6 INT in game may be fairly rare it really doesn't increase the number of ANIMALS that are affected by much.

 

You should also of course consider campaign caps on powers and how this will affect your base power. If your using the standard 60 AP cap (and your GM doesn't allow the bonus dice to ignore the cap) your limiting yourself to an 8d6 mental power on smarter people (including your average super). That's a 28 average effect roll, meaning that you will normally only be able to get EGO +10 effects (making target do something they normally wouldn't mind doing) on your average super with almost NO mental defenses (Increased EGO or MD). And you are not getting a limitation on those 8d6 for doing it this way. Just something to consider. (Personally I would use AVAD INT-10 instead of MD for this (+0), this makes the power work normally on standard intelligence, better on low intelligence, and nearly useless on high intelligence targets. It still uses EGO for the effect roll, Intelligence just becomes the Defense for it. If you want a discount make it AVAD (INT-10 OR MD, whichever is higher, -1/2), or AVAD (INT-10 + MD, -3/4). )