Lord Liaden Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil I see no reason why an evil person must understand their motivations or have the capability of acting differently. It's open to question whether anyone has the capability of acting differently and perfect knowledge of one's own motive is denied to us all. Well, here's how I see it: A really big shark will eat you alive, almost certainly causing you incredible pain and terror, but I couldn't call the shark evil, because it's just doing what's natural for it to survive. A schizophrenic person may respond to his paranoid delusions by killing someone, possibly brutalizing them, but that's mental illness, so said person isn't truly responsible. A fanatic may cause death and destruction to people he's convinced himself are a threat to his beliefs, but those beliefs could be heavily colored by his own fear or jealousy of those other people, or his need to blame someone else for his self-created misery. All of these things emphatically can be very bad in context, but I personally would not consider them evil. I don't ask for perfect understanding of one's motives, but I do believe in insight, self-awareness, free will, and accountability. Since the thread requested a definition, mine is that to deserve to be called evil is to know good, and deliberately choose the opposite. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil Greywind is that an original? Or an excerpt from something? it was really good and begs to have more read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil I'm pretty much down with Lord Liaden's description. For me, there's a difference between evil and bad. Evil, as I understand it, is the deliberate, intentional infliction of suffering. It's the intent that is the defining feature, not the degree or presence of suffering. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil Greywind is that an original? Or an excerpt from something? it was really good and begs to have more read. Thanks. Just a story I'm working on. From my thoughts, there is such a thing as "incidental evil". This is under the "bad things happen to good people" category. But there is also as LL is saying "intent", which to my mind just throws it further down the scale. Willful, wanton, not giving a fk is a lot worse that something that just happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jim Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil I agree the shark is not evil, I am about 99% in agreeance about the mentally ill, but I completely disagree about the fanatic (unless the fanatic is also mentally ill). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil Human evil is what happens when someone is either not able or not willing to try to see the other person's point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Re: Evil Evil is recognizing the harm dome to others in an effort to obtain one's desires, and being okay with (or entertained by) that. "So long as it's not me it's happening to it isn't important". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil I agree the shark is not evil' date=' I am about 99% in agreeance about the mentally ill, but I completely disagree about the fanatic (unless the fanatic is also mentally ill).[/quote'] Fair enough. I guess for me the key distinction is intent, as Markdoc succinctly identified it. AFAICT one of the defining features of a fanatic, however horrendous his actions may be, is unshakeable faith that he is in fact doing good, according to his beliefs. His perception of good may be grossly skewed by whatever unrecognized drives he's sublimating, but that is his perception. Unless, of course, we're talking about fanatical servants of Diabolic or Lovecraftian entities, who recognize their masters as evil and revel in committing horrors in their names. Willingly choosing to serve Evil definitely qualifies as being Evil yourself in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jim Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Hhhmmmm, thinking about it some more you're right not ALL fanatics are Evil. It would depend on what they are fanatics about. Servants of otherworldly, destructive beings = Evil. Followers of a Faith that promotes peace, nonviolence and general benevolence = NOT Evil. Followers of a Faith as (2) above that murder people = Evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Dean Shomshak in The Ultimate Mystic made an interesting observation about Abrahamic angels as described in older text sources. While some, such as "angels of mercy," may be pacifistic and nurturing, angels of battle, punishment, or death are anything but. While undeniably "good" in that they are unswerving in their devotion to duty, justice, and morality, they can also be aggressive, violent, and ruthless in the performance of their duties. There's no grey in their conception of right and wrong, and they have little sympathy or tolerance for human frailties and shortcomings. It would be easy to get on the bad side of one, and the result if you did could be as unpleasant as running afoul of a demon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Evil to me is someone who intentionally hurts others either to just do so or in the course of doing something selfish. Not caring about who is hurt is also evil. Liking to hurt others is Evil. Sometimes people have to be hurt while persuing some good. A good person does all they can to minimize the hurt or what they can to prevent the hurt. They don't allow evil to fester. Hurting others is why I don't do sales anymore. You almost always have to sell people stuff they don't need or do other things that aren't the best for one's good nature. Some people can do that and feel ok about themselves. I was a Great salesperson for years, because I sold only the things that I thought were good for my customer. I moved to another company that cared more about the sale (AKA Profit) than fostering customer relations. I fell into the trap of maximizing my sales for the company. At a certain point I realized that I didn't like the salesperson me anymore. So I quit. It didn't help that I got really sick and had more than a few accidents. Perhaps I did it to myself to give me a reason to leave the evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Well, here's how I see it: A really big shark will eat you alive, almost certainly causing you incredible pain and terror, but I couldn't call the shark evil, because it's just doing what's natural for it to survive. A schizophrenic person may respond to his paranoid delusions by killing someone, possibly brutalizing them, but that's mental illness, so said person isn't truly responsible. A fanatic may cause death and destruction to people he's convinced himself are a threat to his beliefs, but those beliefs could be heavily colored by his own fear or jealousy of those other people, or his need to blame someone else for his self-created misery. All of these things emphatically can be very bad in context, but I personally would not consider them evil. I don't ask for perfect understanding of one's motives, but I do believe in insight, self-awareness, free will, and accountability. Since the thread requested a definition, mine is that to deserve to be called evil is to know good, and deliberately choose the opposite. YMMV. I would consider the fanatic evil. He may rationalize that he is working for some greater purpose. But, in most cases evil rationalizes they are doing good one way or another Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Hhhmmmm, thinking about it some more you're right not ALL fanatics are Evil. It would depend on what they are fanatics about. Servants of otherworldly, destructive beings = Evil. Followers of a Faith that promotes peace, nonviolence and general benevolence = NOT Evil. Followers of a Faith as (2) above that murder people = Evil. Yeah, fanatic in itself isnt, but the fanatic who does harm/murder is (unless mentally ill) Isnt there a saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". That does make sense to me, at least. Your intentions may be good, but how you act on them could quite possibly end up being very evil. Hence, the example of the murderous fanatic How I see it, at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Evil to me is someone who intentionally hurts others either to just do so or in the course of doing something selfish. Not caring about who is hurt is also evil. Liking to hurt others is Evil. Sometimes people have to be hurt while persuing some good. A good person does all they can to minimize the hurt or what they can to prevent the hurt. They don't allow evil to fester. Hurting others is why I don't do sales anymore. You almost always have to sell people stuff they don't need or do other things that aren't the best for one's good nature. Some people can do that and feel ok about themselves. I was a Great salesperson for years, because I sold only the things that I thought were good for my customer. I moved to another company that cared more about the sale (AKA Profit) than fostering customer relations. I fell into the trap of maximizing my sales for the company. At a certain point I realized that I didn't like the salesperson me anymore. So I quit. It didn't help that I got really sick and had more than a few accidents. Perhaps I did it to myself to give me a reason to leave the evil. Yeah, I dont know, how that would work in the scheme of things. Does point out how complicated the subject is though. Note: I wouldnt never be able to sell anything. I just cant do the whole agressive persuasion in that context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil The problem with the concept of a fanatic being evil is that I believe there is a difference between evil and misguided. If you were born and raised to believe that what you are doing was the good and right thing to do, I am not saying you are not DOING evil, but does that mean that you ARE evil? there is a difference in my opinion. A lot of people may do evil without understanding or realizing that what they are doing is evil. That, in my opinion, does not make them evil people. To be an evil person to me requires that you are aware that you are doing evil, and that does not affect your actions. The misguided person deserves a chance to be redeemed in my opinion. They have to pay for their evil actions yes, but the fact that they didn't understand counts for something. The truly evil person however does not deserve a chance at redemption. He/she KNEW what they were doing was evil and decided to do it anyway. Of course, determining whether someone is misguided or evil is very difficult to say the least, but from a philosophical standpoint I believe there is a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Dean Shomshak in The Ultimate Mystic made an interesting observation about Abrahamic angels as described in older text sources. While some' date=' such as "angels of mercy," may be pacifistic and nurturing, angels of battle, punishment, or death are anything but. While undeniably "good" in that they are unswerving in their devotion to duty, justice, and morality, they can also be aggressive, violent, and ruthless in the performance of their duties. There's no grey in their conception of right and wrong, and they have little sympathy or tolerance for human frailties and shortcomings. It would be easy to get on the bad side of one, and the result if you did could be as unpleasant as running afoul of a demon.[/quote'] Dean Winchester: I thought angels were supposed to be guardians. Fluffy wings, halos - you know, Michael Landon. Not dicks. Castiel: Read the Bible. Angels are warriors of God. I'm a soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil The problem with the concept of a fanatic being evil is that I believe there is a difference between evil and misguided. If you were born and raised to believe that what you are doing was the good and right thing to do' date=' I am not saying you are not DOING evil, but does that mean that you ARE evil? there is a difference in my opinion. A lot of people may do evil without understanding or realizing that what they are doing is evil. That, in my opinion, does not make them evil people. To be an evil person to me requires that you are aware that you are doing evil, and that does not affect your actions. The misguided person deserves a chance to be redeemed in my opinion. They have to pay for their evil actions yes, but the fact that they didn't understand counts for something. The truly evil person however does not deserve a chance at redemption. He/she KNEW what they were doing was evil and decided to do it anyway. Of course, determining whether someone is misguided or evil is very difficult to say the least, but from a philosophical standpoint I believe there is a difference.[/quote'] That brings up the Sociopath who may not really understand that what he/she does is evil. They have a brain problem making them less empathetic. I think that eh sociopath is evil due to the acts that most of them perpetrate. Though they may not see themselves as being evil. They might see their act as getting ahead in the world. So yes Consciousness of being evil and staying evil are what makes someone very evil. Though one can do acts that one would otherwise consider evil but due to working for the betterment of society they are given a "pass" on their acts of evil (ie Killing by Law Enforcement, or by the Armed Services). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil The latest issue of Scientific American has an article that might be relevant to this discussion. It's called "The Wisdom of Psychopaths." Sometimes there is a fine line between hero and villain -- like the world-class brain surgeon who says that over the years, he has deliberately extirpated any trace of compassion for his patients. To keep a steady hand and perform surgery at that level of difficulty, he cannot afford any trace of emotion. Psychopaths are, provably, also better detectives than other people. They sense vulnerabilities -- such as having something to hide. But there's a spectrum. The traits of a psychopath (inflated self-esteem, empathy that can be turned off at will, superficial charm, etc.) can be useful at moderate degrees, but criminal and dangerous if they're turned up too high, or paired with other traits (such as a need for instant gratification). Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DShomshak Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil Fanaticism is more complex than it may seem at first. Consider the young man who becomes a Jihadist suicide bomber. He's likely unemployed, seething with sexual frustration, and has been brainwashed for weeks using harangues and sleep deprivation (standard cult indoctination techniques). He is a tool in another's hand and, I think, deserves a measure of pity. The one who brainwashed him does not. This man is a fanatic, but also a hypocrite: You don't see *him* strapping on explosives, eager to become a martyr. But fanaticism and hypocrisy go together like the two sides of a coin. For the sake of The Cause, any lie, crime or blasphemy becomes acceptable and maybe even noble. The fanatic is above the laws and morals that govern lesser, less committed men. A law unto himself. The egotism is incredible, and incredibly evil. Dean Shomshak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Re: Evil "You forgot the first rule of the fanatic. When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Re: Evil No, the first rule of the fanatic is: "It doesn't have to make sense. It "transcends" rational thinking." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Re: Evil Not according to Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concord Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Re: Evil Not according to Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair.May he rest in peace... http://blastr.com/2012/10/michael-ohare-babylon-5s.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Re: Evil One of the most interesting RPG experiences I have heard of (I wasn't in the game) was one where the PCs as a group decided the least evil option remaining to them was the destruction of the world (and this was the annihilation of the planet and all that was on it, not "just" the downfall of civilization). It was a fantasy world wherein, apparently, the supernatural evil powers were on the verge of winning, but it was not (at least initially) a crapsack world. The PCs were, in their own minds, following the right course of action by the standards set out for them by supernatural good powers they followed. The GM (from whom I heard the story) considers this the highlight of his RPG career. I don't know the full story of how and why the PCs made this decision; I would interested to know their opinions of the game and how it ended. In the absence of supernatural evil-by-definition entities, of course, the act of annihilating the world is unmistakably an evil act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Re: Evil drrushing could better relate it. He was involved in a game where the players went back in time and one of them stopped the assassination of Lincoln. One of the other characters took it upon himself to maintain the timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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