Healing Vs Undead

[silverwolfie]

I am trying to help a new player figure out how healing would affect undead. In other systems, a heal vs. living gives them body back, but she is looking for the same ability to deal damage to those described as undead. The only way I could think to do it was a multi-power heal/EB. Can someone else point me to something better, it just does not have the right "feel" she says. She also was asking how to design a power that grants immunity to a particular type of damage, like fire, but is instead healed by the fire. for this one, i have no idea how to start this one. Any help would be appreciated.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

ah, the D&D/Final Fantasy effect.

 

Just build undead with a susceptibility to Healing/Holy magics. As a campaign rule, all undead should have this susceptibility. Thus, instead of healing magics healing the undead, the amount rolled becomes damage to the undead

[Martin2]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

She also was asking how to design a power that grants immunity to a particular type of damage' date=' like fire, but is instead healed by the fire. for this one, i have no idea how to start this one. Any help would be appreciated.[/quote']

 

She looks to already have heal body so how about absorption energy limitation fire only which acts as a heal body with self at the target with a trigger when they get hit?

 

I have the idea but do not know how to convert that into a legal power that did not involve handwavium

[concord]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Just build undead with a susceptibility to Healing/Holy magics. As a campaign rule' date=' all undead should have this susceptibility. Thus, instead of healing magics healing the undead, the amount rolled becomes damage to the undead[/quote']This...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

ah, the D&D/Final Fantasy effect.

 

Just build undead with a susceptibility to Healing/Holy magics. As a campaign rule, all undead should have this susceptibility. Thus, instead of healing magics healing the undead, the amount rolled becomes damage to the undead

 

I'd do it as a Phys Lim, myself.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Just build undead with a susceptibility to Healing/Holy magics.

I'd do it as a Phys Lim' date=' myself.[/quote']

 

I'd do both.

 

5 Physical Complication: Gains No Benefit From Healing (Infrequently, Slightly)

10 Susceptibility: Takes Damage From Healing (Uncommon, 3d6 Instant, Must Contact)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

I'd do both.

 

5 Physical Complication: Gains No Benefit From Healing (Infrequently, Slightly)

10 Susceptibility: Takes Damage From Healing (Uncommon, 3d6 Instant, Must Contact)

 

My only issue (and a nitpicky one it is) is that the amount of damage the creature takes in that case is static, regardless of whether he's getting a Cure Light Wounds or a Full Heal; typically, the more powerful the healing, the more damage the creature takes under the pre-4D&D/Final Fantasy model. A Phys Lim of 'Holy Healing Magic inflicts damage instead of healing' takes that into account.

[Lucius]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

She also was asking how to design a power that grants immunity to a particular type of damage' date=' like fire, but is instead healed by the fire. for this one, i have no idea how to start this one. Any help would be appreciated.[/quote']

 

Immunity: Some combination of high Defenses, Damage Negation, and/or Damage Reduction, only vs fire. Or possibly, Limited Desolidification.

 

Healed by fire: Either Absorption, as has been suggested, or some combination of Regeneration, Recovery, and/or Hearling, Limited to "only if on fire."

 

I second the argument that if you want healing magic to hurt undead, that's part of the nature of the undead condition (something you put on the undead's character sheet) and not a Power per se bought by the healer.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Turn Palindromedary

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

My only issue (and a nitpicky one it is) is that the amount of damage the creature takes in that case is static' date=' regardless of whether he's getting a Cure Light Wounds or a Full Heal; typically, the more powerful the healing, the more damage the creature takes under the pre-4D&D/Final Fantasy model. A Phys Lim of 'Holy Healing Magic inflicts damage instead of healing' takes that into account.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was just going for the general effect rather than trying to model a specific setup, because I'd probably personally just let it be a normal Susceptibility for the sake of simplicity.

[Lucius]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Another possiblity is a Limitation on the STUN and BODy of undead: "Not restored by normal Healing magic, but instead depleted." -1/2

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Absorption vs PRE

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Another possiblity is a Limitation on the STUN and BODy of undead: "Not restored by normal Healing magic' date=' but instead depleted." -1/2[/quote']

 

Though technically, that would only limit any BODY/STUN beyond base values (unless you sold the base back, and re-purchased it with the Limitation).

[purple justice]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

did you think to use the power called drain instead of the power called healing ? If your girlfriend is a player and not a gamemaster , she will not see the difference.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

As a GM do you want all (magical) healing to harm undead, or just this character's? If the former, change the way undead work, if the latter, build the character with a linked heal (does not work against undead) and killing attack (only works v undead).

 

As to the harmful thing healing, well, Hero does not really DO immunity, but you can get close enough for government work. What you need to do is define the parameters of the power/spell. For example, would you be immune to normal fires and heat (in which case you might be able to just use Life Support: Heat, which is cheap) or would it affect attacks too (in which case you probably need Damage Negation, and is going to be much more expensive).

 

Does this immunity last or is it a reaction to a particular thing? Is the healing proportional to the intensity of the fire or not? Does the healing affect Stun AND Body? What about END or other reduced characteristics?

 

All these questions will help to refine the way in which you build the power to best fit the concept.

 

One way is something like:

 

Fireproof: Damage Negation (-9 DCs Energy) (45 Active Points); OAF (Staff; -1), Only Works Against Uncommon attack (-3/4), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Spell lasts 5 minutes before needing to be re-cast; -1/4) PLUS

Soothing heat: +10 REC (10 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only in a turn when Fireproof negated some fire damage; -1), OAF (Staff; -1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) PLUS

Wound melting: Regeneration (1 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs (21 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only in a turn when Fireproof negated some fire damage; -1), OAF (Staff; -1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

66 Active points/16 Real points

That gives you immunity to up to 9DCs of fire damage, which is quite a lot, but you may want to tweak that for your campaign. The absorbed fire then quickens your own healing processes. You could, instead, do it with a linked Heal, but you have to decide how that is going to work too, i.e. what it can heal and such.

 

The problem with this sort of power is that I can see the PC deciding to carry round pots of oil to smash and burn, then stepping into the flames, giving the PC a damage shield and a boost to healing. If it is used that way you might need to tweak the limitation values as fire is then a lot more common than I have assumed.

[Lucius]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Though technically' date=' that would only limit any BODY/STUN beyond base values (unless you sold the base back, and re-purchased it with the Limitation).[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

At first I was wondering why you were pointing that out, then I realized it wouldn't be as obvious to everyone as it is to people who have been playing for decades. So thanks for helping me express myself.

 

Yes, my intention was to buy those traits down to zero and buy them up to whatever level with the Limitation.

 

Hero Designer makes this too easy, you can just hit the little checkmark to make it apply to the whole Characteristic.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks how strange it would be to have a Limitation like that on only part of a Characteristic

 

Lucius Alexander

[Sean Waters]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Harmed by healing is easy enough, however you do it - more difficult is that DnD undead are healed by harming (at least cleric harming spells). That is far more awkward and expensive to simulate. You'd have to build the power as a linked heal/KA that worked only on undead/not on undead.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Rather than a Susceptibility, a Physical Complication that the Undead "Take damage from healing" would work - simply convert the dice of healing to dice of NND or Drain damage. Frequency and the size of healing effects in game will determine the value of the complication.

 

[Anyone remember the old character who took normal damage from Flash attacks?]

[griffinman01]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Rather than a Susceptibility, a Physical Complication that the Undead "Take damage from healing" would work - simply convert the dice of healing to dice of NND or Drain damage. Frequency and the size of healing effects in game will determine the value of the complication.

 

[Anyone remember the old character who took normal damage from Flash attacks?]

 

I'd agree with this since it seems to fit the bill the best. While the susceptibility would work it wouldn't scale with the amount of healing (as mentioned before) and it's a little unusual to have 1D6 of healing do 3D6 of damage while 6D6 of healing does the same. Since there's nothing specific I can see in the rules that let you turn a positive benefit into a negative one it sounds like you'd have to homebrew it. Asking the player to pay extra for an effect like that (one that's highly conditional depending on the campaign) isn't the best way to go so I think that the easiest option is to come up with an appropriate custom disadvantage and state the effects of it.

 

How I'd do it is either convert it to normal damage (as if you were using the simplified healing rules, which could also work if you wanted to deal stun damage with it (assuming the targets even have stun)), or do it as a drain where you deal 1 body for every 2 points rolled on the dice (literally the reverse of healing). Either of these will scale with the amount of healing the user has and I think would best fit the original idea (I'm assuming you're thinking like in Final Fantasy or other Video Game RPGs).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Also agree, but this is me talking so that may not be a good thing I would probably allow the undead to take the Physical Limitation at a higher 'cost' to reflect that people know that healing hurts them and that the amount of hurt is proportional to the healing power. That may not wind up at a different 'cost' to PL+Sus, but works better for me in detailing what is actually intended.

 

Griffinman01 makes an excellent point about how this applies in practice. One issue is defences: bear in mind most undead will be automatons so their defences are 3x the cost. How does the healing attack apply?

 

Well, given that undead will almost always be the enemy, I would probably assume that each 1d6 of healing = 1d6 killing, defences apply as normal, or apply it as normal damage, where defences do not apply:

 

2d6 healing = 2d6 KA (defences apply) or 2d6 normal (no defences). I imagine the former is going to be far nastier most of the time, certainly against low level undead (although powerful undead with higher defences may be more worried by the Body of the 'NND' normal attacks. I would have to see the actual campaign numbers to take a stab at what that sort of complication is actually worth.

[Lucius]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Harmed by healing is easy enough' date=' however you do it - more difficult is that DnD undead are healed by harming (at least cleric harming spells). That is far more awkward and expensive to simulate. You'd have to build the power as a linked heal/KA that worked only on undead/not on undead.[/quote']

 

No, the Undead buy a self-healing Power that kicks in when hit with a 'harm' spell

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Turn Palindromedary

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Harmed by healing is easy enough' date=' however you do it - more difficult is that DnD undead are healed by harming (at least cleric harming spells). That is far more awkward and expensive to simulate. You'd have to build the power as a linked heal/KA that worked only on undead/not on undead.[/quote']

 

I'd probably opt for a limitation on he specific spells about that, though the limitation value might vary depending on whether or not there were friendly undead Mr. Cleric might use it on.

 

This is reminding me more and more of why I don't care for that particular model, though. Heal is heal, harm is harm.

[psyber624]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

I have to agree with several other posters. If its just a special effect of YOUR heal, its a limitation on the heal. If its a standard effect of a type of healing (or all healing) when applied to undead its a physical complication for them (and possibly a mandatory power, like a regeneration with a limitation "only when targeted by a Holy Damage Spell, -2" or some such)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

No, the Undead buy a self-healing Power that kicks in when hit with a 'harm' spell

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Turn Palindromedary

 

That is certainly one way of doing it, although probably fiddlier to add a power like that onto every undead character sheet than other methods.

[Markdoc]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

In the game material this is function of the universe: undead are healed by negative energy, harmed by positive, and living things, the reverse. A player can't change the way this works and can't choose to heal some undead and harm others, using the same energy type. Edit: and in the source material, an undead PC can't choose to be healed by positive energy - it's baked into the setting that if you are undead, negative energy is good.

 

So, I'd make it a +0 advantage on the undead's physical stat.: harmed by positive energy, healed by negative energy (this has the advantage that it doesn't change the cost at all). Living things get the -0 limitation: harmed by negative energy, healed by positive energy.

 

Although, as noted above, players are more likely to channel positive energy - suggesting it should be a limitation for undead, where you find undead, you also find necromancers, like flies on .... well, zombies. The ability to be inside the area effect of your boss's negative energy attacks and get healed at the same time as he zaps his foes, seems like it should be an advantage.

 

I'd rule the two cancel out, leaving it at +0.

 

As for the damage, in D20/pathfinder, the existence of a saving throw indicates you get some defence against it. Since healing goes up against power defence, it seems reasonable that negative energy attacks do too. So I'd build negative energy attacks such as channeling positive energy, or inflict spells, as EB or HA (respectively), kicked up the AVLD table so that they do BOD vs Power Defence. That's expensive, but it's a nasty attack, so expensive seems reasonable.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

This is clearly the most straightforward solution for a campaign: change the way the universe works. Then you do not have to fiddle about with character sheets at all.

[silverwolfie]

Re: Healing Vs Undead

 

Thank you all for the suggestions. I think you are right about just changing how the healing/damage works for all undead in this campaign. Seems to bet the best way to simulate what she was looking for. Thanks again!