Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

[Stacie.Winters]

I'm back, this time asking about Variable Power Pools and wondering What's the best way to deal with them. The reason I ask is as follows:

 

The last time I tried playing Champions, back in 04, the GM had designed every single villain with a VPP. It didn't matter what the NPC had regarding powers, it was like the GM couldn't make a bad guy without VPP's. He also didn't tell us till after he wiped us out in a TPK what he was doing because I had gotten fed up about it... his characters always had just enough Defense and just enough Offense to deal with anything we had... it was after the TPK by a Wolverine wannabe mixed with a Venom Symbiote NPC gave us a thrashing in under two full rounds and when he said that he expected us to flee but we didn't so he decided to punish us... That's when I quit playing this game...

 

So I am wondering... should VPP's be allowed, or are there some instances where it's a good idea, and if allowed, how do you balance it? I'm deciding this guy was being a butt and was just unfair, but if I run a Champions game someday, I want to be prepared.

[Christopher]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Honestly, all the problems you describe are the GM.

To use a VPP effectively in combat is not easy or cheap:

You eitehr have a VPP that you can't modify in combat, one whose change takes you a full phase and a Skill Roll (-5 too -6 for most attack powers), one that cost you 50% of your point total or one not useable for attacks. I asume your GM either ignored that or gave his NPC's a lot more points than the PC's as well.

For all uses in combat VPP's are balanced for whatever effect hey can provide.

 

The only real problem with VPP's can be non-comabt uses. Things like Mind Controll, Clairsentience, Desolidifciation and the like have a big potential to derail whatever plot you have planned.

It is very important to write down what a VPP cannot do.

 

Also remind the player that the overalls (Characteristics, Defenses) have to stay reasonable. Ideally pre-built any of these powers so you have a fixed level.

In generall, pre-built as many powers as possible.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Variable Power Pools in all their myriad incarnations are a tool best used only when necessary to meet the demands of a given special effect. In most cases they just need to have some type of Limitation on what type of powers they can be used for to help balance out their potential to imbalance. One rule of thumb is to require a pre-built list of slots for VPP's (* not all of my examples below do this because different player's could choose different slot constructions). This is not to say that some 'on the fly' constructions should be disallowed. They should just be held to a similar scrutiny as creating a one-shot ability via the Power Skill.

 

See the links in my Signature below to to see both 5e and 6e starting PC versions of the core members of the JLA (specifically, Superman, Green Lantern & Batman; Captain Marvel & Flash have power sets that are derivative of Superman as Green Arrow is of Batman). With the 5er version of Superman I used a Multipower to represent the 'active' portion of his powers but upgraded it to a VPP for 6e. With GL & Batman I used a VPP from the beginning but heavily limited in both cases. Few of these characters appear to fit the 'default' caps suggested by published material and used by many GM's. However, they are all of lower SPD's and Combat Values than many published characters built on similar points. Both versions of GL can generate an 18d6 (Energy)Blast but doing so with any frequency taxes the character END wise nearly equivalently to Pushing for most other characters. They all have Codes vs. Killing which I believe mitigates many of the combat related concerns normally addressed by 'hard' DC caps (again, see the CvK link in my Sig for more on this).

 

HM

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

HERO System is something of an outlier as far as game balance does in that the game rules themselves do little or nothing to balance the game. The only thing stopping your 400 point superhero from spending every single one of those points on a huge Energy Blast is the GM. There is no internal balance; it's all imposed at the specific game table. If the GM opts to run an imbalanced game, the only option you really have is to either strap in and brace for the crappiness, or stand up and find a different GM.

 

VPPs are best used with either limited special effects, limited by the inability to change powers on the fly (see: Gadget Pool) or by responsible players/GMs who understand that the game is cooperative and not competitive, and realize that just because you can screw over the GM/players doesn't mean that you should.

 

That said, if you aren't comfortable with a VPP at your table, either as a GM or as a player, you're under no obligation to allow them.

[Christopher]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Addendum:

I am also a fan of very small VPP's. 5-10 points. Not strong enough to cause any game-balance issues. But enough for minor power like situational Life Supports.

It has just enough Power to Block an NND (wich I consider simply part of the Limitation of a NND*).

 

 

Another ratehr stress-free thing are "difficult change" VPP's. Things like "Only change at base" work wonder here.

 

 

Where you need them:

Some special effects like "Wish granting" or "Solid Light Constructs" tend to need this.

Basically any long established Character will tend towards this - if you try to press thier entire published abilities from a dozen incarnations onto a Startign Sheet, without remembering the Rule:

If it's shown once or twice, it's propably a Power Stunt (Power Roll) or Plot device.

[Christougher]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Sounds more like a bad GM than a bad VPP. VPP's only inherent ability is flexibility, and there is a cost for that flexibility. But as an NPC with unlimited points, they can have that cake and eat your PCs too.

 

Chris.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Sounds more like a bad GM than a bad VPP. VPP's only inherent ability is flexibility, and there is a cost for that flexibility. But as an NPC with unlimited points, they can have that cake and eat your PCs too.

 

Chris.

100% agreement. I try to design NPCs without VPPs unless their concept absolutely demands it.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Resource Pools are a perfect example of how a VPP should look. They have narrowly defined effect (gear, contacts, vehicles or whatever), have Active Point limits, Real Cost limits and even some campaign guidelines for having more effect (gear, contacts, etc) in reserve than you have immediate access to. Further, you can typically only change them in specific conditions (picking up a weapon, making a new friend, stealing a vehicle, going to that weapons stash you establish in the old tunnels, traveling to Barcelona, etc). Sometimes, you don't even have a choice. The bad guy drops a Glock 9mm and you want a S&W .44 Magnum. Guess what, you get the Glock.

 

Mind you, all this is irrelevant if the GM is abusing the rules.

[Tasha]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

I'm back, this time asking about Variable Power Pools and wondering What's the best way to deal with them. The reason I ask is as follows:

 

The last time I tried playing Champions, back in 04, the GM had designed every single villain with a VPP. It didn't matter what the NPC had regarding powers, it was like the GM couldn't make a bad guy without VPP's. He also didn't tell us till after he wiped us out in a TPK what he was doing because I had gotten fed up about it... his characters always had just enough Defense and just enough Offense to deal with anything we had... it was after the TPK by a Wolverine wannabe mixed with a Venom Symbiote NPC gave us a thrashing in under two full rounds and when he said that he expected us to flee but we didn't so he decided to punish us... That's when I quit playing this game...

 

So I am wondering... should VPP's be allowed, or are there some instances where it's a good idea, and if allowed, how do you balance it? I'm deciding this guy was being a butt and was just unfair, but if I run a Champions game someday, I want to be prepared.

 

First. They are balanced by the fact that they are pretty darned expensive to purchase. Especially at levels where you can buy attack powers. If the person can change the powers in the pool at will with no time taken. Then the Control costs goes up by a factor of 3.

 

To balance them. Don't allow large pools that can be changed during combat or at will (0 phase). I make sure that people with large pools can only change the powers in the pool when the are back at their base. I also make sure that the pool has a definite theme. lastly. I make the player come up with a list of powers that can be used in the pool. I recommend that you limit this to less than 8 abilities (if all are attacks). Think of this as the weapons at home or the Spells in the Spell book.

 

Also for new powers that exploit a Villains weakness or new defenses that counter a Villain's attack. I require time and and Inventor roll (make sure that the player knows this when they create the character).

 

Also don't be afraid to say no to poorly defined power pools, just like you would say no to characters that were trying to do too many things.

 

Your old GM shouldn't have done that, but he could have used anything to do what he did. As GM you don't have a point limit on your Villains or NPCs. I use campaign Player Guidelines to help create challenging encounters, but I don't let myself get boxed in by it.

[Stacie.Winters]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Well for me when I run my first game of this I'm going to ease my way into the game so I know I won't be using most of the abilities that have Stop Signs, especially VPP. That guy soured me on them.

 

I am thankful for all the answers. You are all really helping me and I appreciate it.

[Greywind]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

They make some character concepts easier to build. They aren't essential.

[Ice9]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

VPPs are generally balanced, at least combat wise. Unless, of course, the GM gives his villains way too many points.

However, as mentioned, they can easily fall into "omni-utility" unless there's some limit on their "portfolio" of effects.

 

So personally, I wouldn't allow a VPP with an ultra-broad portfolio like "magic" or "super-tech" unless I was running a very high-powered game. But narrow that down a bit - "divination", "chemistry", "thermal control" and sure.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

The problem with VPPs is that they can be used, potentially, for anything. A VPP is an expensive way to buy your 12d6 Blast power, but who the hell uses it for that? A 20 point pool can add 2 dice to your blast, increase your OCV by one and your ED by 5, all at once.

 

A character with stuff added from a VPP should not exceed the campaign norms for a character built 'straight' without a VPP. It is not a licence to sneak around the back door of build guidelines. You also need to be aware that Special powers should not go into frameworks (without GM permission and a GM should not be giving themself such permission as a general rule).

 

In my experience, VPPs are not overpowered, but are open to all sorts of interesting abuse, and some builds are just plain silly point shaving excercises. Although they are incredibly useful when you are building Spiderman Webbing or somesuch, as you are bound to think of something later you forgot, I don't particularly like them and try to avoid using or approving them.

 

I generally require (when they are allowed) a list of pre-built powers they can be employed to use and I generally do not let players make up powers on the fly as it slows play down.

 

As Christopher said, PIBGMSAC*. With that in mind, sacking the GM was entirely appropriate.

 

 

*Problem Is Between Game Master Screen And Chair

[taenia]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

VPPs are useful for several archetypes but you can make them viable in combat with 0 phase changes with a few agreed upon restrictions:

1. Prepare most of the powers to be used ahead of time, this lets the GM know what to expect and allows for more rapid game play without wasted time while you calculate points.

2. Make most attacks cost about the same. This allows you to better switch in and out attacks without changing much else, lets the GM know what you will be doing and makes sure you are staying within DC caps for a campaign.

3. Make sure you and your GM know what you can/can't do with the pool. A character with a Green Lantern like pool can create a variety of objects, but mental powers or desolidification don't fit the flavor at all. This way you can prevent surprises when you are creating your power list and limit the "but wait I can make it rain lemonade!" critical ability when its needed. Unless thats what your VPP is supposed to do.

 

I have played several shapechangers with a VPP as their primary power model. It allows you to really describe just how versatile one can be without the GM throwing the book at you when you pull out a unique ability that solves the problem. I especially like it because in the past it has been used to create a variety of effects that saved the lives of innocents that the GM really appreciated. Making yourself a slide by creating a flight powers with usable on others, anyone nearby you control the END cost etc. to allow people to escape from a burning building was one of my personal favorites.

[psyber624]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Stacie, it isnt VPP's that are broken, its that GM. He wants to kill your guys? He's the GM, he can do it. The fact that VPP was his weapon of choice has nothing to do with the power level of VPP's. He could just as easily made an NPC with perfect foreknowledge of your characters that didnt need a VPP to kill you all if that was his goal. GM's who feel like they are competing against their player characters is one of the easiest definitions of a Bad GM. The GM is God. You can't beat God. So God shouldnt set out to beat you. (its meaningless.) I havent played in ages but I used to LOVE VPP's and all the stuff they let you do..... ahh my old X-Men Rogue clone build.......those were the days

[Barton]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

My ideas

1) Require VPP powers to be PRE-approved by the GM, no stopping the game to create a power unless the player is an EXPERT at Hero system constructs of powers.

2) I usually limit the VPP power to a lower value of active points than the game limit, if game limit 60, the VPP may top out at 45.

3) Not allow cosmic VPP's unless it makes sense for the character.

4) Define what VPP can and can not do (already suggested several times)

5) The NPC's except for mega powerful ones have to follow rules 1 - 4.

6) Allow low level ones for non-combat powers (this is a suggestion, for character "flavoring")

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

I may be getting cynical in my dotage, but if you don't allow cosmic VPPs unless it makes sense for the character, well, you'll wind up with characters it makes sense for. I'm Cosmic VPP Man - the clue is in the name

 

I think the only real limitations you need to bother with are:

 

1. If you wouldn't allow it in a 'straight' build, you shouldn't allow it in as a VPP power, only moreso. So, no building two NNDs with different defences, for example. No building tiny base cost powers with +9 in power modifiers.

2. If having a limitation on the power does not limit it, the limitation is worth nothing. A VPP power you create at night that only works at night is not, in fact, limited - it works just fine and you can change it when the sun comes up.

3. No exceeding campaign guidelines for DC/Defence etc., if there are any.

4. Observe the rules on Special Powers.

5. Things shouldn't be cheaper in a VPP than outside it, so no sidestepping cost restrictions: if you want a Multiform that allows you to change into anything, you need to shell out for lots of extra form doublings.

6. No getting Variable SFX for free.

 

BUT MUM! I don't want to play with it if I can't do all that cool stuff!

 

Fine.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

I may be getting cynical in my dotage, but if you don't allow cosmic VPPs unless it makes sense for the character, well, you'll wind up with characters it makes sense for. I'm Cosmic VPP Man - the clue is in the name

 

I think the only real limitations you need to bother with are:

 

1. If you wouldn't allow it in a 'straight' build, you shouldn't allow it in as a VPP power, only moreso. So, no building two NNDs with different defences, for example. No building tiny base cost powers with +9 in power modifiers.

2. If having a limitation on the power does not limit it, the limitation is worth nothing. A VPP power you create at night that only works at night is not, in fact, limited - it works just fine and you can change it when the sun comes up.

3. No exceeding campaign guidelines for DC/Defence etc., if there are any.

4. Observe the rules on Special Powers.

5. Things shouldn't be cheaper in a VPP than outside it, so no sidestepping cost restrictions: if you want a Multiform that allows you to change into anything, you need to shell out for lots of extra form doublings.

6. No getting Variable SFX for free.

 

BUT MUM! I don't want to play with it if I can't do all that cool stuff!

 

Fine.

 

Sean, which Cosmic are you referring to? A) The combination of Advantages that allow a VPP to function like a Multipower with an infinite number of slots or The Special Effect.

 

I agree with most of your points.

However, there are published character examples by Mr. Long himself that violate your #5. I'm pretty sure it's even a suggestion in one of the APG books.

 

I agree with no freebe for #6 but the character can build a slot with the advantage.

 

HM

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Sean, which Cosmic are you referring to? A) The combination of Advantages that allow a VPP to function like a Multipower with an infinite number of slots or The Special Effect.

 

I agree with most of your points.

However, there are published character examples by Mr. Long himself that violate your #5. I'm pretty sure it's even a suggestion in one of the APG books.

 

I agree with no freebe for #6 but the character can build a slot with the advantage.

 

HM

 

I may have been employing hyperbole, Hyper-Man when I used the word 'cosmic': Cosmic VPPs i.e. the modifier combination that is often termed 'Cosmic' has an associated cost anyway.

 

As for #5, yes, I know...but I would still suggest it as a guideline, or else you can build a polymorph character that can change into anything instantly as cheaply as a Multiform with 30 or so forms (depending on base form cost). I've suggested the infinite polymorph myself on occasion, but I've always needed a shower afterwards.

[Istaran]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

5. Things shouldn't be cheaper in a VPP than outside it, so no sidestepping cost restrictions: if you want a Multiform that allows you to change into anything, you need to shell out for lots of extra form doublings.

 

I think a flexible shapeshifter concept is a fine use for a VPP, and one that is a lot more well defined than a lot of VPP concepts (it's pretty clear what it can and cannot do). Though it seems to me like the concept basically demands a very costly Shapeshift power to cover the cosmetic aspects (and possibly some kind of Linked, like you have to change the cosmetic appearance and the VPP powers at the same time, so that they match. Want to have wing based flight now? You change to an appearance that includes wings). (I might allow a concept like Teen Titans' Beast Boy to skip this, based on the fact that he is glaringly obviously Beast Boy no matter what form he takes. But otherwise part of the advantage of turning into anything is that people see you as being that thing you turned into.)

Multiform can be a -lot- cheaper because the possibility of completely altering your appearance is included for "free", and you can change a much larger chunk of your character sheet relatively cheaply, but the VPP + Shapeshift works much better for an "I can turn into anything" concept.

 

(Personally I usually use Multipower for such flexible shapeshifters. It makes you pay for each new option, but makes it all clear and simple and you never worry about assembling a new power on the fly.)

[dmjalund]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

(Personally I usually use Multipower for such flexible shapeshifters. It makes you pay for each new option' date=' but makes it all clear and simple and you never worry about assembling a new power on the fly.)[/quote']Not even if you change into a fly?

[Istaran]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

Not even if you change into a fly?

 

That's a good point. The ability to turn into a fly should always be built as a VPP, with the special effect that it lets you build things on the fly.

Like: "I turn into a fly. And I build a rocket launcher (as an RKA with Explosion, naturally) on the fly."

[Christopher]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

I may be getting cynical in my dotage, but if you don't allow cosmic VPPs unless it makes sense for the character, well, you'll wind up with characters it makes sense for. I'm Cosmic VPP Man - the clue is in the name

 

I think the only real limitations you need to bother with are:

 

1. If you wouldn't allow it in a 'straight' build, you shouldn't allow it in as a VPP power, only moreso. So, no building two NNDs with different defences, for example. No building tiny base cost powers with +9 in power modifiers.

2. If having a limitation on the power does not limit it, the limitation is worth nothing. A VPP power you create at night that only works at night is not, in fact, limited - it works just fine and you can change it when the sun comes up.

3. No exceeding campaign guidelines for DC/Defence etc., if there are any.

4. Observe the rules on Special Powers.

5. Things shouldn't be cheaper in a VPP than outside it, so no sidestepping cost restrictions: if you want a Multiform that allows you to change into anything, you need to shell out for lots of extra form doublings.

6. No getting Variable SFX for free.

 

BUT MUM! I don't want to play with it if I can't do all that cool stuff!

 

Fine.

I agree, except for 6. This is a major selling point of the VPP. There should be some limit (like all powers are always affected as magic or gadgeteering or some closer defined list of Special Effects).

 

Sean, which Cosmic are you referring to? A) The combination of Advantages that allow a VPP to function like a Multipower with an infinite number of slots or The Special Effect.

 

I agree with most of your points.

However, there are published character examples by Mr. Long himself that violate your #5. I'm pretty sure it's even a suggestion in one of the APG books.

 

I agree with no freebe for #6 but the character can build a slot with the advantage.

 

HM

Wich can only change her VPP out of Combat or (with a Power Skill roll at full AP penalty) with one full turn in combat. And then have to turn the power on.

 

I think a flexible shapeshifter concept is a fine use for a VPP, and one that is a lot more well defined than a lot of VPP concepts (it's pretty clear what it can and cannot do). Though it seems to me like the concept basically demands a very costly Shapeshift power to cover the cosmetic aspects (and possibly some kind of Linked, like you have to change the cosmetic appearance and the VPP powers at the same time, so that they match. Want to have wing based flight now? You change to an appearance that includes wings). (I might allow a concept like Teen Titans' Beast Boy to skip this, based on the fact that he is glaringly obviously Beast Boy no matter what form he takes. But otherwise part of the advantage of turning into anything is that people see you as being that thing you turned into.)

Multiform can be a -lot- cheaper because the possibility of completely altering your appearance is included for "free", and you can change a much larger chunk of your character sheet relatively cheaply, but the VPP + Shapeshift works much better for an "I can turn into anything" concept.

 

(Personally I usually use Multipower for such flexible shapeshifters. It makes you pay for each new option, but makes it all clear and simple and you never worry about assembling a new power on the fly.)

I agree on that one. Flexible Shape Shifters end up just "changing to the right form" anyway, so why bother writing down every form?

HSMA 6E even has a "Shapshifter Combat" Martial Arts. Transforming into a snake could just be the SFX of a +30 STR to escape Grab Maneuver.

 

Not even if you change into a fly?

Flight + Shrinking?

Totally legal powers for a VPP and Multipower. And you need them for the Hummingbird (or most birds) anyway. You just go a little farther on the side of the shrinking at the expense of little flight.

[pinecone]

Re: Is VPP overpowered/How do you properly use it?

 

I'm back, this time asking about Variable Power Pools and wondering What's the best way to deal with them. The reason I ask is as follows:

 

The last time I tried playing Champions, back in 04, the GM had designed every single villain with a VPP. It didn't matter what the NPC had regarding powers, it was like the GM couldn't make a bad guy without VPP's. He also didn't tell us till after he wiped us out in a TPK what he was doing because I had gotten fed up about it... his characters always had just enough Defense and just enough Offense to deal with anything we had... it was after the TPK by a Wolverine wannabe mixed with a Venom Symbiote NPC gave us a thrashing in under two full rounds and when he said that he expected us to flee but we didn't so he decided to punish us... That's when I quit playing this game...

 

So I am wondering... should VPP's be allowed, or are there some instances where it's a good idea, and if allowed, how do you balance it? I'm deciding this guy was being a butt and was just unfair, but if I run a Champions game someday, I want to be prepared.

 

VPPs can be abused, and you've seen that up close. I recommend that all VPPs come with well defined "themes" and stick with it! I had a "Jedi" player who wanted a VPP "The Force!" I said fine, But!. It lasted 1/2 hour... he used the "Force!" to use Growth, Shrinking, and FTL...I spoke with him after the game, and I agreed to never see him again.( when he claimed that all his uses where legit..)..... So maybe ease into it. I usually suggest taking a Big Multi-Power and exchange it for a VPP when it becomes noneconomic to add slots...by then we all "know" what the VPP "should " contain.....