Guide Lines for Campaigns

[Vespor]

I am currently new to Hero System and running a campaign in it. One of my players is very experienced in the system and has been playing for several editions and has been helping me understand the rules better. However, I now know after re-reading the core rulebook that there are somethings that I need clarified if anyone could help me with it. Here are a list of my issues if someone would be as kind to have a discussion with me about them.

 

1) The guide lines for heroic campaigns are straight forward, but what I am confused about is caps on damage to make the guide lines valid. As in does someone with a 20r PD/ED totally unbalance a game in a herioc setting where most damage examples on weapons are around 2d6 Killing Attacks?

 

2) On killing attacks in general, is there really a purpose for them seeing that its so easy to get resistant PD/ED that totally negates any chance of harming someone? In 5e you used KA for the stun multiplier to push through damage in the form of STUN. So far, the game I am running and the new one I'm playing in really has Killing Attacks having really no purpose.

 

3) Ultimately, it is up to the GM to try and balance these issues. However, I truly am new to the system and would like to figure out how to balance these issues as combat is an important part of the game. Right now I am having the problem that players don't like the idea that a killing attack does almost no damage. How can this be balanced without totally limiting the players in what they do? The campaign I am running is 80 active Super Heroic and the one I'm playing in is 70 active Heroic.

 

Ultimately, I am just reaching out to other players and GM's to try and understand this dilemma a little better for my sake and my players.

[Christougher]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

The rule of thumb for defenses is that 2 to 2.5 times the average DCs is average. Maximum is usually pegged at 3.5 times DCs. So yes, 20 PD/20 ED is at the recommended cap. And only half that should be Resistant. If it's *all* resistant you ... run into your next problem.

 

Normal attacks are supposed to do lots of Stun, Killing attacks are supposed to do Body. If that's not possible due to your rules, change your rules. Just because it's possible to have 20 PDr/20 EDr versus 2d6K doesn't mean the GM should allow you to.

 

I've got a few rules of thumb worked out from experience with my group(your mileage may vary), maybe I'll polish it enough to post it. For damage(DCs) and defenses, about 75% of the AP cap is average, and below 50% is largely ineffective. So in the 80 AP(16 DC) game, average would be 60 AP(12 DCs), with a useful minimum of at least 40 AP(8 DC). As applied to defenses, splitting the AP at those levels into PD/ED gives a good maximum (40 max, 30 avg and min 20 PD/ED), with the maximum Armor for that AP as a cap on resistant defense (27 max, 20 avg, 13 min). You may have better success pegging average and minimum as 2/3rds and 1/3rd respectively. But if that Fantasy game has a 70 AP cap then a 2d6K average seems awful low.

 

Chris.

[Tasha]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

I am currently new to Hero System and running a campaign in it. One of my players is very experienced in the system and has been playing for several editions and has been helping me understand the rules better. However, I now know after re-reading the core rulebook that there are somethings that I need clarified if anyone could help me with it. Here are a list of my issues if someone would be as kind to have a discussion with me about them.

 

1) The guide lines for heroic campaigns are straight forward, but what I am confused about is caps on damage to make the guide lines valid. As in does someone with a 20r PD/ED totally unbalance a game in a herioc setting where most damage examples on weapons are around 2d6 Killing Attacks?

 

2) On killing attacks in general, is there really a purpose for them seeing that its so easy to get resistant PD/ED that totally negates any chance of harming someone? In 5e you used KA for the stun multiplier to push through damage in the form of STUN. So far, the game I am running and the new one I'm playing in really has Killing Attacks having really no purpose.

 

3) Ultimately, it is up to the GM to try and balance these issues. However, I truly am new to the system and would like to figure out how to balance these issues as combat is an important part of the game. Right now I am having the problem that players don't like the idea that a killing attack does almost no damage. How can this be balanced without totally limiting the players in what they do? The campaign I am running is 80 active Super Heroic and the one I'm playing in is 70 active Heroic.

 

Ultimately, I am just reaching out to other players and GM's to try and understand this dilemma a little better for my sake and my players.

 

1) yes it's quite unbalanced for a Heroic game. Using normal Characteristic Maxima, PCs should have no more than 8PD/ED plus not more than 8-10r PD/ED armor. In a Heroic game it's usually considered desirable for PC's to be able to take body. PC's in heroic game should average 3-5 resistant defenses + 5 average PD/ED. That makes DC 5-6 actually dangerous and DC4 (1d6+1) also dangerous on a good roll.

 

2) look for Normal Characteristic Maxima in the beginning of the book. Also only allow rDef to come from 1 level of Combat luck and/or Armor that is purchased as equipment. In Superheroic Genre games it is part of the genre that many supers are at least partially bulletproof. Most have powers that don't allow bullets to penetrate and the others tend to wear costumes that are bulletproof in their construction. It should be unusual for a Superhero to actually take body. To actually do Stun damage one uses Blast (Energy blast in 5e and earlier)

 

3) If your players really want to start taking body, you could as an optional house rule say that Killing attacks get one level Penetrating for free. I will warn you that it will bring up the amount of body that the PC's take to the point of many small targets being able to kill a character due to massed fire.

[Vespor]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Thank you for the tips. It has actually helped me make some sense of how to get the feel right. So far I can say that the super heroic game is actually almost balanced from the pointers given. The heroic game is going to need some MAJOR balancing following these guidelines. This will help me run games more efficiently and be a better player.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Just out of curiousity, how did someone get 20 rPD/ED in a Heroic campaign?

[Greywind]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

By spending points, obviously...

[hancock.tom]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

By spending points' date=' obviously...[/quote']

 

How many points was your "Master of the obvious" power?

 

Just wondering, so I can compare it to what I paid for the "sarcastic ass" perk I took.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Or they got it as free equipment...

[Steve]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Another way to have Body damage occur is the 1:20 rules used in Kazei Five. For every 20 Stun a character takes that gets through defenses, they also take 1 point of Body. I've tried it in my own games, and it gives a grittier feel.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Vespor another thing to keep in mind about heroic games is that HKA get bonus to damage based on STR min but not straight strength as in Superheroic rules.

[Christopher]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

1) The guide lines for heroic campaigns are straight forward, but what I am confused about is caps on damage to make the guide lines valid. As in does someone with a 20r PD/ED totally unbalance a game in a herioc setting where most damage examples on weapons are around 2d6 Killing Attacks?

 

2) On killing attacks in general, is there really a purpose for them seeing that its so easy to get resistant PD/ED that totally negates any chance of harming someone? In 5e you used KA for the stun multiplier to push through damage in the form of STUN. So far, the game I am running and the new one I'm playing in really has Killing Attacks having really no purpose.

 

3) Ultimately, it is up to the GM to try and balance these issues. However, I truly am new to the system and would like to figure out how to balance these issues as combat is an important part of the game. Right now I am having the problem that players don't like the idea that a killing attack does almost no damage. How can this be balanced without totally limiting the players in what they do? The campaign I am running is 80 active Super Heroic and the one I'm playing in is 70 active Heroic.

For me there are two guidelines:

The Ratio of DC too Defenses determines how fast combats are.

The Ratio of Defenses that are resistant determines how Deadly Combats are.

 

Standart Superheroic asumes a DC*/Defense Ratio of 1 too 1.5-2**. Up too 75% of that Resistant. So Normal Damage attacks won't be doing body against supers (and most mooks have enough PD/ED that simply pulling your punches won't cause body either). While killing attacks are next to useless (they still work against Robots, Zomies, Entangles, Foci, Barriers and the like...)

 

Heroic games tend towards 1 DC too 1-1.5 Defenses. Up to 50% of that Resistant. So not only can strong Normal Damage Attacks deal Body, even weak KA's can deal Body.

 

To get the reason behind these values, you have to look at the average Damage 3 DC of normal or Killing Damage will do.

Normal Damage, 3 DC: Average 3 Body, 10.5 STUN

Killing Damage, 3 DC: average 3.5 Body, 7 STUN. Togehter with the lower precentage of Resistant Defenses this means relevantly more Body after Defenses.

 

 

*viewed from the Average Attack, wich is 1-2 DC lower than the maximum attack.

**some GM's allows as high as 2.5 or 3 for Bricks.

 

 

When you want to modify lethality or speed of combat, it is best to modify these two values:

DC/Defense Ratio

Resistant Defense Ratio.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Just out of curiousity' date=' [i']how[/i] did someone get 20 rPD/ED in a Heroic campaign?

 

Bought PD/ED up to 8, bought Plate Armor, learned a Force Field spell. Maybe some Combat Luck on the side.

[Greywind]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

How many points was your "Master of the obvious" power?

 

Just wondering, so I can compare it to what I paid for the "sarcastic ass" perk I took.

 

5

[Pegasus40218]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Getting back to the original question...I'm also new to the system, and posted a similar request for advice on how to deal with some of the issues I encountered (and continue to encounter). You might find that thread useful as well. It can be found here: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/90001-6E-Low-Fantasy-Hero-Game-Balance-Issues-Advice-Requested

 

My gaming group come from a D&D (3.5 & 4th Ed) and Pathfinder background. Typically, the GMs run "canned" modules, so character backgrounds don't really matter much as far as the adventure/story is concerned. Since the main thing that matters in those games is the combat, that's where the group's focus tends to be. Add to that a lack of familiarity with the Hero System (both on their part and my own -- prior to attempting to run this 6e campaign, I had played 1 Champions character under 4e rules back in 1994), and the players (and myself) lacked any sense of scope/scale/context as far as determining what might be "too high" for things like OCV, DCV, etc. As a result, I now have 125-point fantasy hero characters who have a base OCV and DCV of 5 or 6. To put that into some semblance of context, a Greater Dragon in the bestiary has a base OCV of 7. Now add 3 or 4 CSLs (typically 3-point CSLs) and martial arts (in at least a couple of cases) and you've got a nightmare on your hands. (Assuming you want to run challenging and entertaining combats. If you want every fight to be a foregone conclusion, this is no big deal.)

[Christopher]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Now add 3 or 4 CSLs (typically 3-point CSLs) and martial arts (in at least a couple of cases) and you've got a nightmare on your hands. (Assuming you want to run challenging and entertaining combats. If you want every fight to be a foregone conclusion' date=' this is no big deal.)[/quote']

This can be a problem if you made the error of looking at OCV/DCV without taking Material Arts and CSL into account.

For all intents I include them when comparing the characters to the limits, because they are always there and are indeed the "usualy way of figthing" for the hero.

 

Martial Arts is for me a limited for of combat ability (it is 0 END STR, OCV and DCV with limitations).

I usually calculate it as a flat +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +2 DC (or 2 + any Martial Arts DC bought).

 

CSL are also 0 END STR, OCV and DCV with a Limitation (it's basically a small Multipower).

I regard every 2 CSL as +1 OCV, +1 DCV and +1 DC.

 

So the following three characters are the same for me, whenever limits are concerned:

6 OCV, 6 DCV, 6 DC

5 OCV, 5 DCV, 4 DC plus Martial Arts

4 OCV, 4 DCV, 4 DC plus 4 CSL that work togehter

 

the later two propably saved points, but also loose versatility. They only have thier full power with "thier" weapon.

[bluesguy]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Hi,

 

When I started w/ my current group I had a ton of Hero experience and my wife had played in Hero games for a while. Everyone else was new. So I feel your pain. To help my players and myself I came up with some guidelines for building characters.

 

Check out

• Gaming Mechanics
  
• Characteristics and Skill Rules
  
• Experience Points
  

 

My campaign is 50/50 combat to role playing (the only dice roles are for skill rolls). Everyone has had fun with this. The combats range from encounters where the PCs wade into a fight against 'cannon fodder' and minions pretty easily - which is the way I wanted combat to be. But when they come up against major villains they really have to work at the combat to survive.

 

If you check out the armor 'rules' I have presented the reasons why people don't find plate armor in my world. The best resistant defense is ~5 PD/ED. Most PCs have 4 to 6 PD/ED. Many of them can dish out 2d6 KA and some have the skill levels to take placed shots. The fodder/minions usually can only dish out 1.5 KA (still nothing to sneeze at) - but never take placed shots. Major villains are right in line with the PCs. Usually they have some special ability/skill that makes the combat interesting.

 

Hope this helps

[Vespor]

Re: Guide Lines for Campaigns

 

Thank you for the further input. Any advice that I can learn from is good advice. Time to apply some of the suggestions.