kahuna's bro Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill good point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The Harbinger of Justice was Steve's character. Why don't you ask him about that? Harby was created for a darker campaign. That's why he originally appeared in Dark Champions. I guess it depends on your Champions campaign. It's funny that people mention "The Boys" when talking about killing in a supers game. The Boys, Martial Law, etc are all worlds where there really aren't any super powered heroes. All of the Supers including the Protagonist(s) are pretty much villains themselves. The Boys is going through that now where the it turns out that while the supers were pretty bad, the people keeping them inline turn out to be just as bad or worse. I guess that's the point of the series. That the people fighting the evil using extreme tactics become unrecognizable from the people they are fighting. That is why your PC's shouldn't be casually killing the badguys. Because eventually the game becomes about the out of control Supers and the "badguy" they are going to kill this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Punisher and Wolverine live in the same universe as Spiderman' date=' Captain America, and dozens of other "no kill" heroes, so I'm not sure how you can claim it is a genre issue.[/quote'] Wolvie's bodycount has tapered off quite a bit since he became an X-Man. He even stopped fighting the CvK people once he fully embrased Charlie's dream. Wolvie now uses his killer rep and people's genuine fear of those claws to get stuff done. He knows with such a signature weapon, anyone he kills will be blamed on him (yeah X-23 and his Son have similar claws, but the first suspicion will be on him). Punisher lives in the same universe, but he operates at a different powerlevel and kind of criminal from the Mutants and other Supers. Their worlds rarely intersect. So yes it is a genre thing. Punisher lives/works/adventures in a different level of the Marvel Universe. Kind of like Dark Champions exists in the same universe as the normal CU, but the characters adventure differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Ah' date=' but by that token there shouldn't be any cross-overs with the Punisher unless the actual heroes were looking to take the murder in.[/quote'] The typical crossover tends to be one where there is a greater threat requiring temporarily putting aside those differences, with Frank slinking off afterwards before he can be taken in - and lots of tension over his methods even during the alliance. Wolvie's caused issues in X-Men. Angel didn't stick around after about 137 because Wolvie's presence bothered him. Storm called him out in the middle of a fight against the Brotherhood shortly after taking over as leader from Cyclops. And Wolvie wasn't really shown as a killer early on. In the Savage Land, around #115, there is a scene where they need to take out a guard. After some discussion, Wolvie stealthily slinks off and we hear a snikt. Storm thinks something like "he is like the great cat on the veldt - when he strikes there is no mercy in him". That set off a letter page furor which ulimately ended in the writers responding "OK, heroes don't kill, and we never SAW what Storm saw. Wolvie grabbed him from behind and KO'd the guard - he did not kill him from ambush". He was later summarized as "If a man comes at me with his fists, I'll meet him with my fists. But if he pulls a gun, or threatens people I'm protecting, then he's made his decision, and I've got no sympathy for him" Like most Supers, this was still a character who used the force needed for the threat, and didn't start with lethal tactics. He lacked the Code against killing, but he still wasn't a casual killer. That was the character that initially garnered popularity with the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And then there's Byrne's take: "Wolverine was a character that could be eating a sandwich, get annoying by Kitty Pryde walking in, kill her, and go back to eating his sandwich." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And then there's Byrne's take: "Wolverine was a character that could be eating a sandwich, get annoying by Kitty Pryde walking in, kill her, and go back to eating his sandwich." So... a normal person in the presence of Kitty Pryde, then... The main killer hero in the DC universe is the Spectre. Nobody seems to want to try to bust him for murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill No. Byrne was just hung up on Wolverine being the berserking rager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And then there's Byrne's take: "Wolverine was a character that could be eating a sandwich, get annoying by Kitty Pryde walking in, kill her, and go back to eating his sandwich." I am pretty sure that wasn't Clairmont's vision of the character. I think that Clairmont's run on X-men is probably the best indication of what the original vision of the character was. I seem to remember that he was just as protective of Kitty Pryde as the other members of the X-men were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill I know. I loved that run. Only stopped when it took over a year to pick up a plot thread, around the time of the Brood-mutants. Logan was rough and damaged. The berserker was just a reflection of his damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill So... a normal person in the presence of Kitty Pryde, then... The main killer hero in the DC universe is the Spectre. Nobody seems to want to try to bust him for murder. how canyou procecut a GHOST?? H '? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Not to mention that Spectre pretty much answers only to God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And has the raw power to keep most heroes at bay. There was an informal group of magic-oriented characters who monitored the Spectre for a while, but that didn't last long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Heroes shouldn't kill, except when there is no other option. Heroes shouldn't kill, except in self defense. Heroes shouldn't kill, except to save others. Heroes shouldn't kill, except when the situation requires it. My Grandfathers both fought in World War II. I call them Heroes, but they did not claim to be. In their words "It had to be done." IMOHO, Heroes should only kill as a last resort. The Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing comes from the Comics Code Authority. Yet the non superhero genre comics Westerns, War, and others Heroes Killing Villians was completely glossed over. Many Philosophies and Religions have different views of the subject of Killing. What it boils down to is Heroes shouldn't Murder. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Heroes shouldn't kill, except when there is no other option. Heroes shouldn't kill, except in self defense. Heroes shouldn't kill, except to save others. Heroes shouldn't kill, except when the situation requires it. My Grandfathers both fought in World War II. I call them Heroes, but they did not claim to be. In there words "It had to be done." IMOHO, Heroes should only kill as a last resort. The Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing comes from the Comics Code Authority. Yet the non superhero genre comics Westerns, War, and others Heroes Killing Villians was completely glossed over. Many Philosophies and Religions have different views of the subject of Killing. What it boils down to is Heroes shouldn't Murder. QM I think those four caveats basically boil down to "Heroes shouldn't kill, except in defense of self and/or others, AND when there is no other option." That rules out vigilante justice(i.e., retaliatory killing) and using excessive force in the name of ruthless efficiency(i.e., killing bad guys simply to preclude the possibility of having to fight them again). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Heroes shouldn't kill, except when there is no other option. Heroes shouldn't kill, except in self defense. Heroes shouldn't kill, except to save others. Heroes shouldn't kill, except when the situation requires it. My Grandfathers both fought in World War II. I call them Heroes, but they did not claim to be. In there words "It had to be done." IMOHO, Heroes should only kill as a last resort. The Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing comes from the Comics Code Authority. Yet the non superhero genre comics Westerns, War, and others Heroes Killing Villians was completely glossed over. Many Philosophies and Religions have different views of the subject of Killing. What it boils down to is Heroes shouldn't Murder. QM amen to that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Heroes shouldn't kill, except when there is no other option. Heroes shouldn't kill, except in self defense. Heroes shouldn't kill, except to save others. Heroes shouldn't kill, except when the situation requires it. My Grandfathers both fought in World War II. I call them Heroes, but they did not claim to be. In there words "It had to be done." IMOHO, Heroes should only kill as a last resort. The Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing comes from the Comics Code Authority. Yet the non superhero genre comics Westerns, War, and others Heroes Killing Villians was completely glossed over. Many Philosophies and Religions have different views of the subject of Killing. What it boils down to is Heroes shouldn't Murder. QM Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill has anyone actually BEEN to the last resort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Duh! Why do you think it's called the "Last" Resort? Place is a dull as dishwater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holck Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Rawshack killed but people hated and him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Who is "Rawshack"? Are you meaning "Rorschach" of the Watchmen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill i think he means rorshack from the watchmen a homage to the charlton hero the question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin2 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill i think he means rorshack from the watchmen a homage to the charlton hero the question If it is him he is not a hero but a nasty piece of work (only from watching the film and reading the book). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Rorshach was a hero until he found out that that kidnapper fed the girl he took to his dogs because she wasn't worth any money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Rorshach was a hero until he found out that that kidnapper fed the girl he took to his dogs because she wasn't worth any money. Also Watchmen isn't a great source for "heroes". It's a great comic that shows what happens when Heroes kill and how it screws up their heads. At the end, the Watchmen weren't any better than the people they fought. Rorschach was the only one that stuck to his convictions. It got him killed in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill +1 on Tasha. And Kahuna is correct about him being based on the Question. (Loosely like all of the Watchmen) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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