Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill If they did the work' date=' they would be paid. The contracts would be enforced by the big army in white.[/quote']That wouldn't stop them from sabotaging the project, nor would it stop them from communicating with the rebels, and evacuating the moment they showed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Everyone would have joined the rebellion if that were the case' date=' instead of just a few people joining the rebellion. People don't like death threats as a part of their contract and they will sabotage whatever they're working on. The Death Star would have been plagued with issues rather than merely be waiting for completion. Plus it would have taken far longer than 4 years to go from "Death Star destroyed" to "We've mostly built a new Death Star that is literally hundreds of time bigger than the original." had there actually been any implications of "do this or we kill you" for the contractors.Simply put: people don't work that way. One of them will stand up to you in a meaningful manner. Especially with the kind of population it would take to build something like the Death Star.[/quote']Who said anything about death threats? The people who blew up a planet last year come to you and announce you are hired as their new construction crew. If anyone says "no" without even considering the fact that there may be repercussion then the are an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Who said anything about death threats? The people who blew up a planet last year come to you and announce you are hired as their new construction crew. If anyone says "no" without even considering the fact that there may be repercussion then the are an idiot.That still leads to sabotage, not highly efficient and incredibly well-organized construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And yet history has shown that groups can be cowed to provide slave labor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill And yet history has shown that groups can be cowed to provide slave labor.Those groups didn't have space ships that go faster than light and most of their work was of poor quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Yeah, like that would actually make a difference. Human nature being what it is, we'd look for alien races to subjugate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Yeah' date=' like that would actually make a difference. Human nature being what it is, we'd look for alien races to subjugate.[/quote']The Empire had a pretty big "humans-only" policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill By law the clones weren't human. Palpatine wasn't above using anyone that suited his aims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill By law the clones weren't human. Palpatine wasn't above using anyone that suited his aims.They looked human, close enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill They looked human' date=' close enough.[/quote'] And yet the law classified them as nonhuman. That's what slavery is in its worst forms. They are denied rights we allow our pets. I'd say that's treating them as less than they are, and in a technological society, an evil regime may have resources that are far beyond those of the average person with which to threaten. Perhaps, as a term of your contract, your family is removed to a "Refuge" along with the families of all the workers. Before work commences, you are then told: "If at any time we discover signs of intentional "inefficiency", there will be a 24-hour delay following the announcement, whereupon your families will suffer an unfortunate accident. The only way to save your family is to discover who is responsible and telling us. If your answer turns out to be correct, we will only execute the guilty party. If your answer turns out to be incorrect, we will spare the accused but execute his family anyway. Remind him how you thought he was guilty and then remember: there is still a traitor among you. This will happen again. Next time, get it right." And there are always those few who don't care how evil the Empire is, so long asthey themselves are doing alright or better for themselves as a result. BTW, military vessels being produced in support of the war effort (not ambulances or recreational boats, but military vehicles of any sort) are considered lawful targets. If workers do not evacuate and are thus caught in the mayhem, that is regrettable, but in the case of destroying the Death Star, the rebels were, in fact, attacking a valid military target. The presence of civilian contractors does not make a military target off-limits unless the loss of civilian life incurred would be greater than if the vehicle had not been attacked. Destroying a weapon intended to destroy millions not as an act of military necessity but as an interrogation tool (the only successful use of the planet-destroying weapon for its stated purpose in the series) is not the same as killing innocent civilians. It would be almost certain that the lives and freedom of countless billions of lives were at stake. Would you recommend the new Deathstar be allowed to be completed first, especially if they relocated or eliminated the one vulnerability the last one had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the clones were still treated better than the aliens, or the fact that the Empire used humans to construct the Death Star, or the fact that those construction companies weren't threatened with death to build the Death Star, and therefore it's their own fault that they got killed when the rebels blew the Death Star into a cloud of confetti. Any "inefficiencies" can easily be blamed on the fact that the vessel's super structure wasn't even completed yet, much less the internal workings of such a massive machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Fascinating as all this is (and it is, really) what does it have to do with the thread's subject at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Absolutely nothing. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Absolutely nothing. Why? Just wanted to be sure I hadn't let something slip by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The destruction of the Death Star was morally questionable, but only in the shallowest of manners, in reality it was okay, because the construction companies knew the risks. This leads to an overarching understanding that sometimes killing your opponent, specifically in order to save hundreds/thousands/millions of lives in comparison to the number you are ending, is a tragic but necessary action. Especially considering how black and white the morality of the Star Wars universe is. That said, you should only resort to killing/murder when not doing so is a worse action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Sure, they knew the risks. So do most supervillains. I don't think you can really claim with a straight face that some random empire soldier was worse than the Joker or Red Skull. The difference is easy to explain - different genre conventions. But it's not like there's an inherent line there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill You aren't generally at war with the average supervillain and to my knowledge, most supervillains aren't murderous douchebags either. Now guys like Joker and Red Skull you are basically at war with, because they aren't trying to rob a bank or steal precious artifacts from museums, but to spread anarchy and conquer the world respectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The destruction of the Death Star was morally questionable, but only in the shallowest of manners, in reality it was okay, because the construction companies knew the risks. This leads to an overarching understanding that sometimes killing your opponent, specifically in order to save hundreds/thousands/millions of lives in comparison to the number you are ending, is a tragic but necessary action. Especially considering how black and white the morality of the Star Wars universe is. That said, you should only resort to killing/murder when not doing so is a worse action. No it wasn't. It was a valid military target. Much more so than Alderaan was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill No, I mean it was morally questionable to anyone who didn't think about it beyond just "oh well, there were construction workers there", that makes it questionable in only the shallowest manner possible, which is basically the same as not being questionable at all, as I stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill NOT. AT. ALL. It was a valid military target. Same as the munitions factories that were in place next to schools. "Sorry about the children, but you shouldn't have been using them as a deterrent to keep your facility from being bombed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill You aren't even reading what I'm saying. I think we're done here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Those groups didn't have space ships that go faster than light and most of their work was of poor quality. Yeah, those pyramids just didn't hold up over time, did they? I can certainly see the Empire imposing a requirement of service to the state. You'll be paid, but you don't have the option of refusing service. That's hardly unprecedented - in the real world, for example, you may have heard of something called "the draft". The Swiss still require military service of their citizens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Yeah' date=' those pyramids just didn't hold up over time, did they?[/quote']But the Pyramids weren't built by slave labor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Yeah' date=' those pyramids just didn't hold up over time, did they? I can certainly see the Empire imposing a requirement of service to the state. You'll be paid, but you don't have the option of refusing service. That's hardly unprecedented - in the real world, for example, you may have heard of something called "the draft". The Swiss still require military service of their citizens.[/quote']The difference between the draft and the creation of a Death Star is that the draft is actually needed, unlike the Death Star, and most of the people drafted would have served anyway. The draft personnel also aren't typically called upon to commit genocide either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The emperor must have thought it was needed since he built two of them. And since the Empire was a dictatorship his was the only vote that mattered when it came to deciding what was needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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