Help me grok HERO!

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

What I think we really need is some more campaign info. Unfortunately the Hero words for this thing might be in one of the books you don't have.

 

What is the target power level? 400 points is standard for a super hero, but it can be more or less for different types of genres.

 

Do you have any power limits? Attack powers, defense powers, OCV, DCV?

 

Game world stuff:

 

Who are the players opponents, if they are the only supers? Because no super villains....

 

What's the tone? Grim, light, humor? What comic book age? Silver, bronze, iron, diamond, rust?

 

What kind of morality? Are the players expected to be all "good," or "evil," or will the form a cohesive group at all?

 

Do you have any details for the campaign city?

 

What do you have planned for their first challenge?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

What's the diamond age? I seem to have a gap in my education there. Actually, what's the Rust age?

[Greywind]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

There's no Diamond Age of comics. The Rust Age is what happened when they shoveled too much crap on the Iron Age crap.

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I thought Diamond Age was a common term for post-Rust Age.

 

http://www.comicvine.com/news/is-this-the-diamond-age-of-comics/141229/

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

What is the target power level? 400 points is standard for a super hero' date=' but it can be more or less for different types of genres.[/quote']

400 points with 75 points of matching complications.

 

Do you have any power limits? Attack powers, defense powers, OCV, DCV?

Not at present, but as we haven't gotten to the crunchy part of chargen, I'm open to suggestions. Attributes are limited to the "Average," "Skilled," and "Competent" columns of the Characteristics Comparison Table (6E1, p. 48).

 

Who are the players opponents, if they are the only supers? Because no super villains....

Most likely, the U.S. Government. If they try to be capes, they'll be the targets of a, shall we say, aggressive recruitment drive. If they go bad, the recruiters will become even more aggressive. If they go really bad (mass murder), they'll more likely just be killed out of hand.

 

What's the tone? Grim, light, humor? What comic book age? Silver, bronze, iron, diamond, rust?

Tone is not super-grimdark, and with this group I expect there to be humorous moments, but overall I'm aiming for a fairly serious tone. As for the age, I don't know enough to be able to answer that.

 

What kind of morality? Are the players expected to be all "good," or "evil," or will the form a cohesive group at all?

I suspect they will be mostly "good," with the possibility of a "chaotic neutral" character.

 

Do you have any details for the campaign city?

The campaign will be set in Middleton, Kansas, a small farming town. I want the action to stay in the town, and have already advised my players that any power that takes them a significant distance away (flight, superspeed, megascale teleportation, extradimensional travel, etc.) will put them "offstage."

 

What do you have planned for their first challenge?

Honestly, my plans in that direction are very loose. The first gameplay session will be the empowering event and its immediate aftermath. After that, it depends on

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

400 points with 75 points of matching complications.

That gives us basic information, we can work from that. It is always nessesary to establish those first. Otherwise it is impossible for heroes to fill specific roles or "be the best" at something.

 

Not at present' date=' but as we haven't gotten to the crunchy part of chargen, I'm open to suggestions. Attributes are limited to the "Average," "Skilled," and "Competent" columns of the Characteristics Comparison Table (6E1, p. 48).[/quote']

Honestly, ignore those tables. Everyone I know on this board does. They are onyl missleading.

 

What is a dozen times more important are effective OCV, DCV, DC and defense Levels. Like the ones of 6E1 35.

Two very important values for the combat resolution are the Average DC and the maximum Defenses.

The range is given as 6-14. 8 or 10 too 14 is more common. The average DC is more or less established at 12 DC.

No mater from what source the DC's come (STR, HTH-Attack, Martial Arts, CSL), count them towards these limits.

The same with OCV/DCV. Don't allow someone to ahve top of the line values + CSL + Martial Arts. CSL and Martial Arts are limited ability to fight - buying them instead of "raw" ability means you are weaker.

The defenses should depend on how fast and deadly you want the game to be. Usually the maximum is something around 2 times Average DC. But I have games see go as high as 2.5 or 3 times average DC.

The deadlyness depends on how much defenses overall and how many of them resistant. Super games tend towards up to 75%. Heroic games more towards 50% (by a much lower overall).

 

The reason behind this is the average damages:

1 DC normal Damage does on average 1 BODY, 3.5 STUN.

3 DC norma Damage does around 3 BODY, 10.5 STUN. 12 DC thus 12 BODY, 42 STUN

3 DC Killing Damage does on average 3.5 BODY*, 7 STUN. 12 DC thus 14 BODY*, 28 STUN

*with this body only going agaisnt the resistant defenses.

 

The character should also have soem decent CON, so that the average 12 DC blast does not STUN him.

Naturally top DC and top OCV should not go togehter. The same as top DCV and top Defenses. There should be a tradeoff - CSL and Martial Arts are good for this kind of "shuffling power".

 

Most likely' date=' the U.S. Government. If they try to be capes, they'll be the targets of a, shall we say, aggressive recruitment drive. If they go bad, the recruiters will become even more aggressive. If they go really bad (mass murder), they'll more likely just be killed out of hand.[/quote']

You need to find some way to chalenge them in their "weightclass" (400 points) or above (single foes to chalenge the group). Be it writing tanks or robots up as 400 point Characters. Or maybe summon powerfull Spirits. Maybe some kind of super-mindlinked team (a single 500 point character written up with massive Duplication and Teamwork).

Aren't there supposed to be some "anti-life" monsters/spirits running around in Shadowrun? Confronting them could give the heroes something to do that has meaning

 

When all they ever fight is 175 point mooks with 8 DC attacks, the above guidelines might fail. (Or rather you have to set them so low they don't).

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

You need to find some way to chalenge them in their "weightclass" (400 points) or above (single foes to chalenge the group). Be it writing tanks or robots up as 400 point Characters. Or maybe summon powerfull Spirits. Maybe some kind of super-mindlinked team (a single 500 point character written up with massive Duplication and Teamwork).

Aren't there supposed to be some "anti-life" monsters/spirits running around in Shadowrun? Confronting them could give the heroes something to do that has meaning

 

When all they ever fight is 175 point mooks with 8 DC attacks, the above guidelines might fail. (Or rather you have to set them so low they don't).

 

There will be no supernatural elements beyond the PCs; this is "supers in the real world." Also, I apologize for not making myself clear before: I'm running this game as a break from running Shadowrun.

 

If it comes to a knock-down, drag-out fight between the PCs and the U.S. military, the military is going to win. I don't know what DC a 2,000lb laser-guided bomb develops, but I'm guessing it's pretty damned high, and those things are cheap as dirt (compared to the cost of crazed superhumans running free).

[casualplayer]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Hakkonen, fun campaign idea. I've played in something similar. I will say that characters made on that many points will be very difficult to keep in Middleton. That's enough points to make any of the animated Justice League. Lots of the problems you are bumping into will fade away if you make characters on 250 or even 150 points. Then the players will be tough enough to rough up some cops or break out of jail but not so strong that tank shells bounce off.

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

If it comes to a knock-down' date=' drag-out fight between the PCs and the U.S. military, the military is going to win. I don't know what DC a 2,000lb laser-guided bomb develops, but I'm guessing it's pretty damned high, and those things are cheap as dirt (compared to the cost of crazed superhumans running free).[/quote']

That is a tricky thing:

You can't use the values from 6E2 for Vehicles or weapons. Those are desinged for heroic games.

A 400 poitn superman clone could never punch through the armor or survive a hit from teh main gun of a Abrahams. You need to figure out those values.

 

As I see the only real treath is "they have masse" and "you can't really go someplace else" (the main factor why supers would win eventually is mobility).

I agree with casual that maybe a lower point limit would work better. You put a bunch a justice league clones into a world without any real chalenge and a artificial limitation on the place.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I didn't say I was unable to say "No' date='" I said I prefer not to. In this case, though, it looks like it's unavoidable. You've all raised excellent arguments against allowing this concept, and I'm going to let Rodger know he needs to come up with another idea.[/quote']

 

You can certainly say something like no for now, until we all know the rules better.

[Tasha]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

That is a tricky thing:

You can't use the values from 6E2 for Vehicles or weapons. Those are designed for heroic games.

A 400 poitn superman clone could never punch through the armor or survive a hit from the main gun of a Abrams. You need to figure out those values.

 

As I see the only real truth is "they have mass" and "you can't really go someplace else" (the main factor why supers would win eventually is mobility).

I agree with casual that maybe a lower point limit would work better. You put a bunch a justice league clones into a world without any real chalenge and a artificial limitation on the place.

 

This is YOUR opinion. I have been using those value or ones very similar to those in games since the late 80's. The Heroic writeups for weapons/vehicles/armor are a great place to start getting a feeling of how powerful their supers are.

 

Now if you want to play a game that has a more fantastic feel like a DC comics world. Where Superman can survive a direct hit from a Nuke. Then there are things you can do that doesn't waste all of that wonderful prebuilt equipment. ie you can assume that supers have a certain amount of Damage Negation. Even 15points of Damage Negation will prevent most Heroic weapons from damaging a super at all.

[Tasha]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Now for a regular Supers Game in 6e. 400total points including 75points of Complications is a great start. (for you 5e folk that is the Equivalent of about 300-325pts to build the character with).

 

I recommend DC 10 average with DC 13 max. CV 9-10 avg, CV 13 max. Speed 5 avg Speed 7 max. For speed and OCV I recommend having PC that want high Speed and OCV to do less average damage and lower def than someone who wants to have lower DCV and Speed

[casualplayer]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Now for a regular Supers Game in 6e. 400total points including 75points of Complications is a great start. (for you 5e folk that is the Equivalent of about 300-325pts to build the character with).

 

I recommend DC 10 average with DC 13 max. CV 9-10 avg, CV 13 max. Speed 5 avg Speed 7 max. For speed and OCV I recommend having PC that want high Speed and OCV to do less average damage and lower def than someone who wants to have lower DCV and Speed

 

These stats are fine if your antagonists are built on similar stats but will completely outclass cops, soldiers, mooks and government agents. Hakkonen, if OCV is +3 or more over the target's DCV it is into the "shooting fish in a barrel" range. If your players have 9-10 OCVs your enemies will need 7 DCVs to be anything but target practice.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

9-10 OCV would be in the "Legendary" range, which I have declared off-limits except by special permission (i.e., you need a damned good reason). I think professional soldiers, particularly front-line combat troops, should have 6 or 7 OCV and DCV; ordinary civilians would have Combat Values of 2 or 3.

[psyber624]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

9-10 OCV would be in the "Legendary" range' date=' which I have declared off-limits except by special permission (i.e., you need a damned good reason). I think professional soldiers, particularly front-line combat troops, should have 6 or 7 OCV and DCV; ordinary civilians would have Combat Values of 2 or 3.[/quote']

 

note that if you are using that rule for 400 point hero's, you are going to have heros with ALOT of spare points to spend......

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

When I looked up biokineticist on Bing, I found the following link: http://biokineticist.com/

 

It sounds like a biokineticist is just another term for a physical therapist.

[Hakkonen]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

When I looked up biokineticist on Bing, I found the following link: http://biokineticist.com/

 

It sounds like a biokineticist is just another term for a physical therapist.

 

Yeah, that's not at all what Rodger was talking about. This issue has already been clarified, starting with post #33.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Yeah, but I replied without thinking, before I even reached that post. Ignore my post above if you wish.

[Tasha]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

9-10 OCV would be in the "Legendary" range' date=' which I have declared off-limits except by special permission (i.e., you need a damned good reason). I think professional soldiers, particularly front-line combat troops, should have 6 or 7 OCV and DCV; ordinary civilians would have Combat Values of 2 or 3.[/quote']

 

I think that it would depend on what kind of campaign you want to run. If you want to run a true supers game with the Heroes fighting other Superhumans, then what I posted about powerlevels will work. In fact it allows you to use nearly all published Villains without much rewriting.

 

Now if you want to run a game that is more similar to "Alphas" or "Heroes" (The TV shows). Then go ahead and set the Dex/SPD/CVs down to Heroic Levels. ie Dex 14 avg, 20max/Spd 3 avg, 4 max/ Cv 8 Avg, 10max

 

Once the averages and maximums are set you can figure out the average Def and max def etc. You should probably decide how bulletproof you want the PCs to be.

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

9-10 OCV would be in the "Legendary" range' date=' which I have declared off-limits except by special permission (i.e., you need a damned good reason). I think professional soldiers, particularly front-line combat troops, should have 6 or 7 OCV and DCV; ordinary civilians would have Combat Values of 2 or 3.[/quote']

 

The problem with declaring "Legendary" off limits is that you are playing superheroes, and superheroes qualify as legendary. In fact, to the right of the Legendary column is "Superhuman," and that's what you're doing. So you should move the cap for stats up to 75 points or so, and OCV and DCV up too, if you are going to play 400 point heroes. (That means having a Strength of 75 is OK.)

 

Or as Tasha suggests you can reduce the points overall to 250 and play under the Legendary cap. You'd end up with something more like the Heroes TV show.

 

BTW, OCV 7 for soldiers sounds rather high. I'd say OCV 3-4 for a basic soldier, plus up to +2 total in skills, then the rest of their bonus should come from equipment. For example, a scope on a rifle.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

For playing Heroic levels, I'd definitely agree that a front line soldier's OCV would hard cap at 6, and probably expect it to be me around 5. Above 5 and you are looking at elites, top notch veterans, etc.

[gojira]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

For playing Heroic levels' date=' I'd definitely agree that a front line soldier's OCV would hard cap at 6, and probably expect it to be me around 5. Above 5 and you are looking at elites, top notch veterans, etc.[/quote']

 

 

Is that a base OCV of 6, or is that total offense (OCV base + skill levels)? Just trying to clarify for the OP and calibrate my own scale.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I'd lean towards total offense, and then let the quality of their weapons add 1-2 OCV/negate Penalties. I want my PCs to feel deadly without having to have ridiculously high CVs (at least to start), and it still lets the soldiers be quite dangerous by fighting smarter, not by being able to do called shots to the head.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

I ran a fun campaign many years ago where we made agent level characters and had a schtick, a one dimensional superpower. One guy was invulnerable, nothing could physically damage him but that was it, another was super fast another could go invisible.

 

Each power was turned to supreme levels, overwhelming, but one dimensional. Was fun. A collapsing building nearly wiped them out. Invisibility not effective against falling masonry, there was almost nowhere to run and too many hazards to go too quickly in the dark and mr invulnerable was suffocating under the main fall of masonry...

 

That was because we forgot we were not full three dimensional superheroes and thought we could handle anything. Only Mr Strong saved us that time...

[Christopher]

Re: Help me grok HERO!

 

Harkonnen, the main problem is see is the following:

First you give them the power to change the world. Then you take away the ability to use that power.

 

You take away their mobility (limiting to once city), wich is the main reason "but we have more people" does not works against most heroes.

Then you limit the foes they can encounter too heroic (175 or 225 points?) or normal levels.

 

So most solutions will fall into two catergories:

1. A tedious dice throwing against foes that never stand a chance.

2. A problem that cannot be solved by thier powers at all. They can't jsut go in, beat them up (too many, too big repercussions).

 

It would be a little bit like letting the heroes make 10th level Barbarians, Rangers, Fighters. And then throwing them into a political intrigue game with the hardest duel beign against a 5th lvl Royal (the NPC class) - or the knowledge that the 200 lvl 5 Warriors will kill them if they do "X".

 

If you don't want them to be so high that they can jsut ignore normal, don't give them the points to go so high. 400 point in a world were 175 is the Swat Team Anti-Super "Elite of the Elite" will hardly be funny.

300 points where 225 is the best the Government has to offer, is much easier to balance. There can still be a 50 or 100 point bankrobber/gang member. In fact 175 points will be rare. But there are teams that can (using coordinated teamwork) take them out anyway.