Infertile Half-Breeds?

[Steve]

In fantasy worlds following after D&Ds notions of half-breeds (like half-elves and half-orcs), such half-breeds form their own separate races, especially half-elves. You get half-elves getting together with other half-elves and making more half-elves.

 

What if such species mixes were infertile? Would that make them rarer? What other notions could be introduced if cross-breeding between two sentient species was possible, but the results were known to be infertile?

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

It would raise ethical and moral questions regarding interracial breeding, and as a result, only the most selfish and unscrupulous beings would consider it, IMO; consequently, there would be fewer half-elves and half-orcs, and those that do exist would suffer from higher rates of dysfunction than those in traditional fantasy settings. I would only consider doing that if I were wanting to run a dark fantasy and I was willing to do the extra work of considering the social consequences of so many mules. If I wanted to a more high fantasy or heroic fantasy, I would either disallow them completely or keep them as they are traditionally done.

 

(Note: I am using race in more the biological rather than philosophical sense.)

[Christopher]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

In fantasy worlds following after D&Ds notions of half-breeds (like half-elves and half-orcs), such half-breeds form their own separate races, especially half-elves. You get half-elves getting together with other half-elves and making more half-elves.

 

What if such species mixes were infertile? Would that make them rarer? What other notions could be introduced if cross-breeding between two sentient species was possible, but the results were known to be infertile?

It is extremely uncommon for any sentient character to be infertile in any genre. They rather tend to be "overly interbreedable".

Most worlds have a "totally interbreedable" species - most often humans.

 

Have you considered "alternative" reproduction methods?

More than two parents

Cloning

Binary Cloning

 

Being infertile has it's down and upsides:

For upsides, see "The Witcher" gameseries, in wich the Character really used his "immunity to disesaes" and infertility to it's fullest.

As with birhtcontroll, the reactions can varry greatly. Some might consider any relationship without (chance for) progeny as "unholy"/"waste of time". Others might embrace the possibilities ("perfect" prostitutes/mistresses).

 

If they tend to be rarer, depends on how good the two species get along.

[Clonus]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

]In fantasy worlds following after D&Ds notions of half-breeds (like half-elves and half-orcs)' date=' such half-breeds form their own separate races, especially half-elves. You get half-elves getting together with other half-elves and making more half-elves.[/quote']

 

Note that there were only about three actual elf-human crossbreedings in the whole history of the Tolkien universe, but all of the Numenoreans would be half-elves in D&D terms.

 

 

What if such species mixes were infertile? Would that make them rarer?

 

Obviously.

 

What other notions could be introduced if cross-breeding between two sentient species was possible, but the results were known to be infertile?

 

It could increase the social stigma of being a breed if the culture expects fertility as the mark of a man or woman. It could make them popular as sexual playmates out of wedlock because they raise no inheritance issues. It could lead to it actually being illegal to marry them. It could avert the social stigma of being a breed because they pose no "threat" of the races actually merging.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

They could be quite useful, politically. Sire a few and raise them as ambassadors of the court, dignitaries. They can carry a strong measure of weight (since they are of royal or important blood), and yet not a disaster if they are captured or killed (they were never heirs, after all).

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I recommend not going there. "Miscegenation" comes out of a dark and creepy place in human history, and deserves to be left there, even in fantasy.

 

And, yes, I am a hit at parties. Why do you ask?

[Clonus]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

They could be quite useful' date=' politically. Sire a few and raise them as ambassadors of the court, dignitaries. They can carry a strong measure of weight (since they are of royal or important blood), and yet not a disaster if they are captured or killed (they were never heirs, after all).[/quote']

 

Guaranteed infertile half-breeds do have the same selling point as eunuchs for bureaucrats without having to use The Operation.

 

I recommend not going there. "Miscegenation" comes out of a dark and creepy place in human history, and deserves to be left there, even in fantasy.

 

Some people live dangerously and have slavery and old school city sacking in their RPGs as well.

[Steve]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

Actually, comparing them to eunuchs is an idea I had not considered. Since they can't found dynasties through progeny, taking a society like ancient China's and saying the bureaucracy only accepts half-elves gives it an interesting spin. Imagine half-elves as bureaucrats and courtiers. Since we would be talking about both males and females, other ramifications could be considered.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

In my fantasy world, which languishes in limbo, the only people that can produce ANY offspring with another species is daemons (not necessarily evil in my world). On the other hand, this results in persons with daemon heritage having a chance of being interfertile with other species, in direct proportion to their percentage of daemon blood. This could potentially lead to surprises for someone whose great great grandmother was a daemon, who just assumes that human-on-elf action isn't going to go anywhere.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

In David Weber's "War God" series, all the races: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Half Elf, Halfling, and Hradani* are refered to as "the races of Man"; in ancient times there were only Humans, then they split as magic affected different human groups in different ways. Only Humans can be true mages; Dwarves are limited to stoneworking magic, Elves do not age after puberty, Half Elves have limited magic and extended lifespans, Hradani regenerate (Halfling magic talent hasn't been mentioned). But they're all the same race, and treated as if they were merely different ethnic groups rather than different species.

 

*Hradani are treated like Orcs by the cultures around them, but are blessed with awesome. David Weber likes his heroes superhuman.

[Markdoc]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

In my fantasy world' date=' which languishes in limbo, the only people that can produce ANY offspring with another species is daemons (not necessarily evil in my world). On the other hand, this results in persons with daemon heritage having a chance of being interfertile with other species, in direct proportion to their percentage of daemon blood. This could potentially lead to surprises for someone whose great great grandmother was a daemon, who just assumes that human-on-elf action isn't going to go anywhere.[/quote']

 

Heh. In my world, the Fae can (and do) breed with anything: it's why færies, dwarves, trolls, etc come in so many different shapes and sizes: they're basically all variants on the same thing. Since many fae are natural mages and/or shapechangers, that's also where my world gets things like talking animals and beastmen The outcome of such mating is going to be somewhere in-between the two parents (predicting exactly where is kind of hard). So if the handsome woodsman gets it on with a Huldre, the offspring is going to look like a beautiful troll, a handsome human, or something in-between (a fair maid with a cow's tail, a boy with immunity to fire, or a back that looks like the bark of a tree, or just an unusually handsome child, etc). If such offspring ends up with the human parent (and many a handsome woodsman has been woken by somebody tipping a screaming baby in through his window after midnight:)) even if it has inherited the fae ability to impregnate or be impregnated by anything, a generation or two of mating with humans will lead to people who look (and indeed are) more or less indistinguishable from their kin.

 

cheers, Mark

[Orion]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

It would raise ethical and moral questions regarding interracial breeding' date=' and as a result, only the most selfish and unscrupulous beings would consider it, IMO; [/quote']

 

 

Seriously? This is so far from what I would expect, that I can't even begin to see where you are coming from. Forget the sky not being the same color in our worlds, I don't think we are even in the same dimension.

 

 

What ethical/moral issues do you even foresee? Are you saying that there is an expectation or command that everyone has have kids and by reducing the chance of having grandkids you are somehow wrong?

[Christopher]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

Seriously? This is so far from what I would expect, that I can't even begin to see where you are coming from. Forget the sky not being the same color in our worlds, I don't think we are even in the same dimension.

 

What ethical/moral issues do you even foresee? Are you saying that there is an expectation or command that everyone has have kids and by reducing the chance of having grandkids you are somehow wrong?

When you knew with 100% certinty that your children would be unable to have children themself, would you still set them into the world?

[McCoy]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

When you knew with 100% certinty that your children would be unable to have children themself' date=' would you still set them into the world?[/quote']

Um, I didn't set mine into the world, I was Childless by Choice and sort of had foster fatherhood thrust upon me, but I am very, very glad Number Two Son and Number Three Son are also Childless by Choice. As was my only nephew.

[Christopher]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

Um' date=' I didn't set mine into the world, I was Childless by Choice and sort of had foster fatherhood thrust upon me, but I am very, very glad Number Two Son and Number Three Son are also Childless by Choice. As was my only nephew.[/quote']

I am not talking about giving them a Choice.

I am talking about not giving them a choice.

 

When you are thinking about having a child and you know in advance with 100% certinity that they won't ever have children, would have them?

I see it not to different to sterilising them long before they ever have a choice in the mater.

[McCoy]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I am not talking about giving them a Choice.

I am talking about not giving them a choice.

 

When you are thinking about having a child and you know in advance with 100% certinity that they won't ever have children, would have them?

I see it not to different to sterilising them long before they ever have a choice in the mater.

We evolved with a very strong drive to reproduce. It is an important part of life. It is not THE most important part of life. It is not more important than all other parts of life put together. If an infant had a birth defect or genetic abnormality so they could never reproduce, would you suggest euthanizing them so they didn't suffer the emotional pain of being sterile?

 

If not, and I certainly hope not, why would it be evil for their parents to give them life, the ability to enjoy what they could of life, even if that does not include the possibility of procreation?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

Thread drift ahoy?

[Steve]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

Thread drift ahoy?

 

I fear so. I'm not sure how to redirect away from the approaching iceberg.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I fear so. I'm not sure how to redirect away from the approaching iceberg.

 

Try civility first: it's always nice to get it out of the way .

 

I'll chime in with my two coppers in a bit.

[Badger]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I fear so. I'm not sure how to redirect away from the approaching iceberg.

 

Please, please keep Celine Dion out of this......

 

......unless you plan on leaving her on that iceberg.

[Christopher]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

We evolved with a very strong drive to reproduce. It is an important part of life. It is not THE most important part of life. It is not more important than all other parts of life put together.

Honestly, I think all our other drives and emotions are primarily there to make reproduction/survival of our offsprings possible

Survival is nessesary to reproduce. So anything that improves the odds of survival (for you or your offspring) is a logical conlusion.

Love/Lust is primarily "search for suiteable parent".

Most forms of "personal fulfillment" are simply the new way to be seen as "atractive/worthwhile mate".

Social interaction and a Social System is interesting for: Securing Survival, Finding Mates, and having some certinity that you children will survive if you die before they are ready.

 

While birth controll and a life expectancy beyond the normal reproductive age have somewhat changed our environment, our instincts haven't caught up yet.

I say primarily, because I think that once you understand and accept thier original meaning behind Love, Lust, Social instinct, Survival Instict and "personal fullfillment", you can work with them instead of trying to run on against them.

 

Examples:

Parents are willing for great sacrifices for thier children. Even thier life.

Communities allow the survival of the children if the parents die, so people are willing to die for thier community (faith, country, tribe).

communities also allow for the survival of the parents and finding a partner, so people are willing to risk thier life for it.

 

If an infant had a birth defect or genetic abnormality so they could never reproduce' date=' would you suggest euthanizing them so they didn't suffer the emotional pain of being sterile?[/quote']

I was talking about not getting pregnant in the first place.

Any debate about stopping live from being born after conceiving/killing it after birth will always only lead to bad blood and ehtical discussions.

 

If not' date=' and I certainly hope not, why would it be evil for their parents to give them life, the ability to enjoy what they could of life, even if that does not include the possibility of procreation?[/quote']

You are making a big decision on behalf of your children.

 

For you reproduction might not be relevant enough or you have other reasons not to (similar to the ones we discuss). But I can say that a lot of people do wish to procreate. When you have children that will never be able to have offsprings, aren't you putting your need to have children over the need of your children to have children?

Isn't saying that "children are worth it, even when they are infertile" aknowledging that the drive to reproduce has a relevant meaning?

 

Thread drift ahoy?

You asked: "What other notions could be introduced if cross-breeding between two sentient species was possible, but the results were known to be infertile?"

We are discussing exaclty that issue, no Thread drift in sight.

[McCoy]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I could, and probably should, just say that I have never felt diminished by not standing at stud, but conceded I have known others who did, and agree to disagree.

 

We all know that's not going to happen, right?

 

Lots of points in your last post, probably will not have time to get to them right now, reserve the right to circle back.

Honestly, I think all our other drives and emotions are primarily there to make reproduction/survival of our offsprings possible

Survival is nessesary to reproduce. So anything that improves the odds of survival (for you or your offspring) is a logical conlusion.

Love/Lust is primarily "search for suiteable parent".

Most forms of "personal fulfillment" are simply the new way to be seen as "atractive/worthwhile mate".

Social interaction and a Social System is interesting for: Securing Survival, Finding Mates, and having some certinity that you children will survive if you die before they are ready.

Which brings us back to free will vs. determinism. If the reproductive drive is that strong, once the parents start lusting after each other, offspring are the inevitable result, no matter the consequences, not their fault.

 

I was talking about not getting pregnant in the first place.

Any debate about stopping live from being born after conceiving/killing it after birth will always only lead to bad blood and ehtical discussions.

Conceded. Withdrawn!

 

You are making a big decision on behalf of your children.

It's called "being a parent." That's the job description, making big decisions on behalf of your children, biological or otherwise. People do it all the time, and the tragic/ironic/farcical aspect is that most of the time they do not realize that's what they are doing.

 

For you reproduction might not be relevant enough or you have other reasons not to (similar to the ones we discuss). But I can say that a lot of people do wish to procreate. When you have children that will never be able to have offsprings, aren't you putting your need to have children over the need of your children to have children?

Isn't saying that "children are worth it, even when they are infertile" aknowledging that the drive to reproduce has a relevant meaning?

I would rather put it "the child will probably find joy in their life, even purpose, and perhaps meaning, even thought they will never know the specific joy of having their own biological child." The alternative is to say life is nasty, brutish, and short, and the ONLY thing that makes it worthwhile is the chance to inflict that all-but-meaningless existence on another generation, which is also making a big decision on behalf of their children.

 

You asked: "What other notions could be introduced if cross-breeding between two sentient species was possible, but the results were known to be infertile?"

We are discussing exaclty that issue, no Thread drift in sight.

What he said.

 

More later, to the surprise of no one I'm sure.

[Markdoc]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I think more to the point, philosophy apart, the purpose of sex, for most people (beings?) is sex. Kids are a potential downstream effect, and the exaggerated care and consideration displayed for them in Western societies is not only specific to western societies, but also a relatively recent social change in those societies. In the relatively recent past, people who knew that their family had a risk for serious and even fatal congenital diseases continued to to make babies. Even today, it is within my personal experience that people do this, when IVF is out of their financial reach.

 

So ... I honestly doubt that the fertility of any potential offspring would have the slightest effect on their behaviour. In fact, based on current and historical human behaviour, we can be pretty much certain of it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Christopher]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

I think more to the point' date=' philosophy apart, the purpose of sex, for most people (beings?) is sex.[/quote']

But I think the reason why it is so important, is because the survival of our species demanded it to be important. If not, our Caveman ancestors would have played Stone-checkers all day long and would have died out

Of course the instincts haven't caught up to ideas like infertility, birthcontrol, homsexuality and willfull abstinence yet. But from an evolutionary point of view those are propably not relevant. If they have genetic origins/roots, they very effectively select against themself.

 

Sex is said to have (among other things) the following effects:

Relieve of stress (or is it rather that not having it causes stress?)

Endorphins

Increases Emotional Binding (apperently that needs a different hormon)

 

Afaih Sperm has in addition to the primary function, the at least following effects for women:

Anti-depressant

Improves Immune system

Nutrients (it's sugar solution for most parts)

 

In the relatively recent past' date=' people who knew that their family had a risk for serious and even fatal congenital diseases continued to to make babies. Even today, it is within my personal experience that people do this, when IVF is out of their financial reach.[/quote']

In that case apparenty our reproduction instinct is stronger than our mind. Wich only proves that having children is important. And that our instict hasn't selected to inlcude things like "prevention of gene defects" yet.

Also keep in mind that people in those times you talk about rarely had the understanding of how genetics work. Or why some children die or are born with defects, while others live and prosper. They might have understood the concept of Illness and maybe how to coutner one. But they lack 95% of the knowledge we take for granted today.

 

So ... I honestly doubt that the fertility of any potential offspring would have the slightest effect on their behaviour. In fact' date=' based on current and historical human behaviour, we can be pretty much certain of it.[/quote']

I think infertility is a different thing compared to any other Chilbirth problem. In all other instances the child could survive and repruduce themself.

In this, they never, ever could.

 

Also as a tie in to other childhood defects:

In no other case do people nessesarily know why it happens. They don't understand genetics or even illness nearly as good as we do. Even for us genetics is a new area (20-50 Years?).

In case of infertility, the why is clear: They are infertile, because they are half-breeds. That's how it always is, that is how it always will be. The controll group is the entire planets population. How underdeveloped medicine is has no relevance for this.

[Orion]

Re: Infertile Half-Breeds?

 

When you knew with 100% certinty that your children would be unable to have children themself' date=' would you still set them into the world?[/quote']

 

a) Where the child comes from is of zero importance to me. For the life of me I cannot understand why people get so hung up on needing to donate the genetic material themselves. What matters is who raises the child, not who donates a cell. They can adopt a child a birth and have the same quality of family.

 

Not everyone thinks having kids is a good thing. There are people out there that would see not being able to have kids as a good thing, and thank their parents. It is just as easy to believe they would be happy with the situation as unhappy. Tolkienesque dwarves, for example, are often portrayed as never marrying or having kids, either because of cultural issues, or because of an out-of-balance sex ratio.

 

c) Personally, if I knew I had certain "bad" genes, I'd make sure I never reproduced, so that they couldn't be passed on. But as to whether my kids could have kids? That would never enter the equation.