Enerjutsu

[Opale]

Hello HEROphiles !

 

We had a game and a very specific question came into the game.

One character has the Enerjutsu martial art, and uses the Legblast maneuver to Throw foes and hit them.

But It has an Area of Effect Blast aswell.

 

I wondered if when you use an Enerjutsu maneuver - or by extension any martial art maneuver - the effects apply to all attacks you use them with.

 

For instance, would the 8d6 Area of Effect(16 m radius) attack, benefits the legblast effects, like it was a simple 12d6 Blast, making all foes hit by the attack to be Thrown.

Would that work, and if so, would that need any kind of special roll attack or modifiers ?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Opale, Bruce Lee legacy

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Not sure I would let them use Ranged Martial Arts with an AoE attack, especially "targeted" ones like Tripping or Disarming. Many GMs require Fine Manipulation on TK to use Martial Arts with it and that's not even AoE (although that is a bit different in that you can use HtH MAs with TK).

[steriaca]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

As the original creater of "Energy Blaster Combat Arts" (from a Digital Hero artical), I would not alow using the AoE attack with that Enerjutsu manuver. You need cairful aim in targeting, so triping as an area is not alowed. Targets can still be knocked back, thoe.

 

Note: I also woulden't alowe it with an Blast with the limitation "No Knockback", in that thay can try the attack (and it can hit normaly), but it will never cause the target to fall.

 

Remember, a limitation which can be countered by the charater in some way is not a limitation at all.

[Opale]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Thankee for the help !

 

Opale

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Personally, I would allow you to use any Martial Maneuver with any attack power, as long as the Character has the Weapon Element for it (And I think one Element per power sounds fair).

 

For Area of Effect:

I woudl still allow it. Of course the AoE Advantage cannot be ignored, so the bonus will be less dice that just augmenting a normal, single target Blast.

 

I also wouldn't require "Does Knockback". You can trip someone without hitting them (In fact a ranged martial trip that does damage costs more), like shooting the ground to create and hole/obstacle. Or hit him with such surprise he instictivle dodges (wich puts him in the bad position - the prone penalties).

It's not that hard to find a way to apply the rules of a trip, without needing to apply the Special Effect of "Martial Arts trip".

[Manic Typist]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Why not AoE a Trip maneuver?

 

Curious.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Why not AoE a Trip maneuver?Curious.

AoE (with the exception of AoE 1m Accurate, which can be dodged) targets an area not a person. If I remember correctly you can target a person with an AoE but you have to hit their DCV. So perhaps it could be allowed if you target the person and anyone else caught in the blast just takes normal damage without beng tripped. Of course most opponets have a DCV higher than 3 which increases your chance of missing and the AoE "drifting" somewhere you don't want it ti go...

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

AoE (with the exception of AoE 1m Accurate' date=' which can be dodged) targets an area not a person. If I remember correctly you can target a person with an AoE but you have to hit their DCV. So perhaps it could be allowed if you target the person and anyone else caught in the blast just takes normal damage without beng tripped. Of course most opponets have a DCV higher than 3 which increases your chance of missing and the AoE "drifting" somewhere you don't want it ti go...[/quote']

But the same can be done with Telekinesis, AoE.

Or a naked AoE-Advantage to strenght.

 

In rule-technical regards a Ranged Trip/Disarm is nothing but impromtou telekinesis. Hence I woud allow it, but require one Weapon Element per power and of course you have to acount for the Advantage when adding STR (+4 DC on an attack with +1 AoE advantage only means +10 STR, not +20).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Personally' date=' I would allow you to use any Martial Maneuver with any attack power, as long as the Character has the Weapon Element for it (And I think one Element per power sounds fair).For Area of Effect:I woudl still allow it. Of course the AoE Advantage cannot be ignored, so the bonus will be less dice that just augmenting a normal, single target Blast.I also wouldn't require "Does Knockback". You can trip someone without hitting them (In fact a ranged martial trip that does damage costs more), like shooting the ground to create and hole/obstacle. Or hit him with such surprise he instictivle dodges (wich puts him in the bad position - the prone penalties).It's not that hard to find a way to apply the rules of a trip, without needing to apply the Special Effect of "Martial Arts trip".[/quote']Any manuever with any power? So my 2x Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Beam, No Knockback RKA defined as "deadly cutting laser" can be used to Trip someone? Or to Disarm them? Disarming doesn't do damage so it can't be hitting the person and the laser does no Knockback so how does the Ranged Disarm work with such an attack? "But Bigby, you're using some crazy edge-case exception built just argue." Am I? Okay, letms try this: Stun Blaster, 12d6 Blast, No KB (which automatically includes no Body). Thatms a pretty bog-standard superhero power. How does an attack that does no KB or Body and whose SFX include no concussive force disarm or trip someone?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

AoE bought for STR is almost always done so as a Naked Advantage specifically so the STR isn't limited by the AoE rules. Not sure what your point about TK is. TK is not special and if bought with AoE is subject to the rules of AoE...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

How does an attack that does no KB or Body and whose SFX include no concussive force disarm or trip someone?

 

You hit them in the leg/foot or arm/hand and deal enough damage to render the body part temporarily numb, thus they drop their weapon/fall over as their knee buckles or can't put any weight on the foot.

[rentauri]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

As the original creater of "Energy Blaster Combat Arts" (from a Digital Hero artical)' date=' I would not alow using the AoE attack with that Enerjutsu manuver. [/quote']

 

So my Ghostly Army bought as a Telekinesis STR 20, Fine Manipulation AoE 16m with the SFX that I summon Ghostly Soldiers in the to do my bidding could punch all the targets but can't trip or disarm? Put it another way in the first X-men (and other comics) movie we have a prefect example when Magneto uses his TK (an Area of Effect ability) to disarm all the Police of there weapons in one 'attack.'

 

Any manuever with any power? So my 2x Armor Piercing' date=' Penetrating, Beam, No Knockback RKA defined as "deadly cutting laser" can be used to Trip someone? Or to Disarm them? Disarming doesn't do damage so it can't be hitting the person and the laser does no Knockback so how does the Ranged Disarm work with such an attack? "But Bigby, you're using some crazy edge-case exception built just argue." Am I? Okay, letms try this: Stun Blaster, 12d6 Blast, No KB (which automatically includes no Body). Thatms a pretty bog-standard superhero power. How does an attack that does no KB or Body and whose SFX include no concussive force disarm or trip someone?[/quote']

 

Tripping and Disarming doesn't simply mean applying force to a target and knocking them down or the item away it simply means getting them to fall down and let go of something respectively. In both of the examples the success of the maneuver doesn't actually mean the full power of the attack (damage/advantages) hits the target. The Blaster could work just like a nerve pinch, it hits the target and causes them to let go of the item (Disarm) or causes their legs to give out (Trip). The Deadly Laser may generate heat/energy and a 'near-miss' causes a slight burn or causing a leg to give out (Trip) or the person to drop the item reflexively (Disarm). Of course the Deadly Cutting Laser would more likely disarm or trip in the way Jedi wielding a Lightsaber would Disarm someone.

 

In the end I think that it depends on the SFX of the power however I think that if the player can cleverly describe the how and why they are accomplishing the maneuver then let them try it. I would make them however roll a Power skill roll (Deadly Cutting Laser Tricks or Blaster Tricks) but we have that skill there to attempt to do weird crap with the characters.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

So far it seems everyone is making my arguments for me.

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Any manuever with any power? So my 2x Armor Piercing' date=' Penetrating, Beam, No Knockback RKA defined as "deadly cutting laser" can be used to Trip someone? Or to Disarm them?[/quote']

As others pointed out, even your built designed exclusively and with no other target than to be a counter example can be used that way.

 

Disarming doesn't do damage so it can't be hitting the person and the laser does no Knockback so how does the Ranged Disarm work with such an attack?

Then how could ANY weapon make a Ranged trip without also doing strike damage? And you are aware that a Trip that also causes damage costs extra?

When the character paid for the power, the weapon element and the maneuver I don't see why he should not be able to do it.

 

You hit them in the leg/foot or arm/hand and deal enough damage to render the body part temporarily numb' date=' thus they drop their weapon/fall over as their knee buckles or can't put any weight on the foot.[/quote']

So far we have:

Damaging the ground (or environment in general) in a way that they trip.

Near miss with shock effect.

Non-damaging hit with shock effect (even a 12 DC, double AP and penetrating attack does little actuall damage if it only hits the upper layer of your hands skin).

I am certain we find more special effects.

 

Back to the AoE situation:

A AoE Telekinesis or STR can be used to trip multiple opoonents in an area. It can be used to punch multiple opponents in an area. And it can be used the same way to Grab and shove.

I really see no reason to force players to only buy enerjutsu Trips that also do strike damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Okay' date=' letms try this: Stun Blaster, 12d6 Blast, No KB (which automatically includes no Body). Thatms a pretty bog-standard superhero power. How does an attack that does no KB or Body and whose SFX include no concussive force disarm or trip someone?[/quote']

 

This is a good point. I have the feeling that using this with trip is more a violation against the spririt of the mechanics of the game more than special effects. I.e. I take a disadvantage (no knb) but still able to trip someone? That does feel a bit weasely. rentauri is right that this is a great candidate for a Power skill roll and I would add that a negetaive modier be applied as well. "You want to nick his leg just enough that he falls down but gets no damage?", "Power roll with a -2 modifier please." It should go without saying that depending on the genre, the roll or modifier can be waived or not allowed.

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

This is a good point. I have the feeling that using this with trip is more a violation against the spririt of the mechanics of the game more than special effects. I.e. I take a disadvantage (no knb) but still able to trip someone? That does feel a bit weasely. rentauri is right that this is a great candidate for a Power skill roll and I would add that a negetaive modier be applied as well. "You want to nick his leg just enough that he falls down but gets no damage?"' date=' "Power roll with a -2 modifier please." It should go without saying that depending on the genre, the roll or modifier can be waived or not allowed.[/quote']

First bigby's example has it upside down:

No body includes no KB, not the other way around.

 

Second I don't see a conflict:

If the attack was used with a Strike and Trip, would you argue that a "stunbeam to the feet" can not trip someone?

The only difference between "Trip and Strike" and only "Trip", is that you do no damage - but also pay less for the maneuver. Limitations and Advantages on the power are irrelevant for this discussion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

I.e. I take a disadvantage (no knb) but still able to trip someone?

 

No, I take a limitation (no knockback) and then I PAY for a maneuver which enables me to trip someone.

[dmjalund]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

if you make somesones foot numb at just the right moment, I'm sure you could affect a trip

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

No' date=' I take a limitation (no knockback) and then I PAY for a maneuver which enables me to trip someone.[/quote']

 

When you buy weapon element for a martial art, you don't get to use all the manuevers automatcially-it depends on the special effect (or a generous GM). I.e. you have karate and the offensive strike is defined as Kick, you buy weapon element for staff, you don't get to add your offensive strike to your staff damage. My point, even though you paid points, you still are limited by special effect. So isn't this similar?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

When you buy weapon element for a martial art' date=' you don't get to use all the manuevers automatcially-it depends on the special effect (or a generous GM). I.e. you have karate and the offensive strike is defined as Kick, you buy weapon element for staff, you don't get to add your offensive strike to your staff damage. My point, even though you paid points, you still are limited by special effect. So isn't this similar?[/quote']

 

First you indicated that the SFX based explanation for how the Stun only no knockback blast might Trip someone seemed like a mechanical cheat, in that

I.e. I take a disadvantage (no knb) but still able to trip someone?

 

Now you're back to an SFX concern, which I believe is more than adequately addressed by others above.

[Christopher]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

When you buy weapon element for a martial art' date=' you don't get to use all the manuevers automatcially-it depends on the special effect (or a generous GM). I.e. you have karate and the offensive strike is defined as Kick, you buy weapon element for staff, you don't get to add your offensive strike to your staff damage. My point, even though you paid points, you still are limited by special effect. So isn't this similar?[/quote']

Ranged Martial Arts is designed to work with weapons/inate powers.

You compare Leg and Staff.

But the comparsion should be Hand and Leg. Or staff and spear.

 

Ranged MA never works with the bare STR. It is more "abstract". Your only problems is that you can conceive "how" you trip somebody without doing damage* to him - yet that is the 4 Point ranged Martial Trip does exactly that. All it's damage comes from the velocity of the one tripped (and I am not even certain that you need an element for that, normal fallign rules should take care of that.

 

 

*damage relevant enough to be tracked in Body and stun.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

No' date=' I take a limitation (no knockback) and then I PAY for a maneuver which enables me to trip someone.[/quote']

 

And how do you justifiy the trip? The reason why I brought up the staff and kick, I paid for staff(HA) offensive strike (kick) and weapon element staff, acording to the rules I still cannot add the staff to the kick. So just because you paid for the manuever, doesn't mean you CAN use the manuever for every power. Now personally I don't like this rule but I'm just bringing up RAW and the question I believed that was asked if you could use the trip for every power. I'm just saying that the re is precident that to the effect of no.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

First you indicated that the SFX based explanation for how the Stun only no knockback blast might Trip someone seemed like a mechanical cheat, in that

 

 

Now you're back to an SFX concern, which I believe is more than adequately addressed by others above.

 

As with the sfx concern, its because it directly affects the how you can apply the mechanics of martial manuevers.

Oh and with the mechanical cheat it still comes back to sfx no? Imean ideally we buy the powers mechanically to suit our vision of the special effect? So I would ask, why did you define it this way but now want it to work that way?

[rentauri]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Well Enerjutsu seems unique in that the weapon elements are powers themselves not SFXs. The weapon element is listed as Usable with Blasts; Blasts Weapon Element is Free and the Elements Section were you normally list kicks, swords, staffs abilities has +1 Use Art with Ranged Killing and +1 Use Art with Drains. That said I would image that all Blast powers no matter the SFX are covered with theoretical Ranged Trip attack and if we wanted to use a Deadly Cutting Laser well you would need to buy the Weapon Element Ranged Killing Attack to do it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Enerjutsu

 

Btw I'm assuming that this is in 6th? I'll just go and have to get it now!